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Thread: PB wants to use the frog

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    PB wants to use the frog

    Just got the bid in we will probably go with. PB wants to install frog system. Is there any shame in having him install it then switch to the BBB method as soon as I get comfortable with being a first time pool owner ?

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    As long as you don't install the mineral pack it's not the end of the world, but understand that the "Frog" chlorine packs are a specitlty item with an increased cost.

    If it were me (and my money paying for the pool) I would have him install a standard 3" puck chlorinator. Kind'of like this one: Rainbow 320 Inline Chlorinator - R171096 - INYOPools.com
    . 3" pucks are available anywhere, Frog packs are limited to certain stores and are higher priced. Having a Frog brand dispenser locks you in to their products.

    The TFP methods (we are trying to distance ourselves from BBB because too many people run out and stock up an all items) is not "against" pucks or solid forms of chlorine. It is based on accurate testing, understanding what your pool needs and only adding what it needs. I was a little low on CYA a few weeks ago due to a wet spring and just brought it up by floating a few tabs. Almost all of these items have a place, except maybe products contains metals.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Not really. Other than the metals and minerals that it adds to the pool which you will probably have to remove by draining. I would request a SWG before I would allow any thing other than a straight liquid chlorine system.

    Even a puckinator is too tempting. Folks are tempted to just throw some pucks in and try to make that work. They end up back here with instruction on how to SLAM.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Your money, your pool, your picking of what goes on/in it! NOPE to froggy yes to the inline for weekends and such.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Quote Originally Posted by Tjthrows View Post
    Just got the bid in we will probably go with. PB wants to install frog system. Is there any shame in having him install it then switch to the BBB method as soon as I get comfortable with being a first time pool owner ?
    Yeah, unfortunately he's probably getting a commission on those Frog systems. If you can, tell him you'd rather not have a Frog system and that a simple in-line chlorinator will suffice. He'll probably hit you up for extra $$$ by saying he can't get any other system as cheaply, blah, blah, blah. You could just say no thanks to any inline chlorinator and tell him to just give you a straight run of PVC so you can add your own Stenner chlorine pump later, but I imagine that'll just ruffle his feathers and cause a little bit of indignant feelings.

    It's always hard to know because most PB's are "dealers" for specific brands (which is how they make extra money), so when you want to deviate from their standard operating procedures, they get annoyed. I personally would have no problem with demanding what I want from a project that would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but I understand your reticence...
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    While talking about it, I would suggest you make sure that the return pipe to the pool has a foot or two of clear pipe so that if you choose to add an automated system later (SWG, Stenner, Liquidator) you have a,place to cut in and add the item.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately he's probably getting a commission on those Frog systems. If you can, tell him you'd rather not have a Frog system and that a simple in-line chlorinator will suffice. He'll probably hit you up for extra $$$ by saying he can't get any other system as cheaply, blah, blah, blah. You could just say no thanks to any inline chlorinator and tell him to just give you a straight run of PVC so you can add your own Stenner chlorine pump later, but I imagine that'll just ruffle his feathers and cause a little bit of indignant feelings.

    It's always hard to know because most PB's are "dealers" for specific brands (which is how they make extra money), so when you want to deviate from their standard operating procedures, they get annoyed. I personally would have no problem with demanding what I want from a project that would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but I understand your reticence...
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    ask your PB how much more a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG). if its not much more to upgrade I would highly recommend that. no point in paying for something you aren't going to want to need. I would not pay for an inline puck chlorinator either just for vacationing. if you want to go that route you can just use a $10 floater.

    SWCG is the best of both worlds to me...creates a steady supply of chlorine, but without adding CYA to your water.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    Ye

    It's always hard to know because most PB's are "dealers" for specific brands (which is how they make extra money), so when you want to deviate from their standard operating procedures, they get annoyed. I personally would have no problem with demanding what I want from a project that would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but I understand your reticence...
    who cares if you annoy the PB, he isn't your buddy doing you a favor. you are paying him a lot of money to put in what YOU want. put away any personal feelings when dealing with contractors. its a business agreement. never be afraid to negotiation and demand changes. if they wont, find another PB
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Quote Originally Posted by DaninFLA View Post

    who cares if you annoy the PB, he isn't your buddy doing you a favor. you are paying him a lot of money to put in what YOU want. put away any personal feelings when dealing with contractors. its a business agreement. never be afraid to negotiation and demand changes. if they wont, find another PB
    I get where you're going with that and I totally agree that it should be a business arrangement but the truth is, it rarely ever is. The PB is someone that will be in your life for the better part of 2-3 months. There will be periods during the build where you will be talking almost daily to your PB and he and his crew will be showing up at 0-dark-early every day. A pool build is a very invasive process filled with intense amounts of stress both financial, physical and emotional. You are essentially tearing up your backyard and living on a construction site for the better part of 2 months. There will crews of various and savory characters wandering around your yard. And, this assumes everything goes off without any problems (which it never does).

    So, my suggestion to the OP is to treat the PB with respect and try to cultivate a positive relationship with him, not an adversarial one. Should problems arise, and they will, having started off with harsh feeling will only complicate matters down the road.

    Specifically with the Frog system, you could always ask for that straight PVC pipe and then ask the PB to investigate installing a Stenner pump. If you're willing to throw him a little extra cash to make it worth his (and his plumber's) while, then it's a win-win for everyone.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I get where you're going with that and I totally agree that it should be a business arrangement but the truth is, it rarely ever is. The PB is someone that will be in your life for the better part of 2-3 months. There will be periods during the build where you will be talking almost daily to your PB and he and his crew will be showing up at 0-dark-early every day. A pool build is a very invasive process filled with intense amounts of stress both financial, physical and emotional. You are essentially tearing up your backyard and living on a construction site for the better part of 2 months. There will crews of various and savory characters wandering around your yard. And, this assumes everything goes off without any problems (which it never does).

    So, my suggestion to the OP is to treat the PB with respect and try to cultivate a positive relationship with him, not an adversarial one. Should problems arise, and they will, having started off with harsh feeling will only complicate matters down the road.

    Specifically with the Frog system, you could always ask for that straight PVC pipe and then ask the PB to investigate installing a Stenner pump. If you're willing to throw him a little extra cash to make it worth his (and his plumber's) while, then it's a win-win for everyone.
    totally disagree with this mindset and its the reason for my post. there is nothing adversarial about telling the contractor yes or no on items. they are not going to take that personal. you might think you would, but that's not how the business works. I deal with contractors every day in my line of work.

    you do not need to "ASK" your contractor to do something. you TELL them that's what you want, especially in the front end process where you are deciding what you want. YOU are the CLIENT. its simple black and white people, don't let emotions get in the way of what you want.

    if your PB really has an issue with this type of back and forth and negotiating, you need to find a new PB. and never let the PB bully you into making decisions, they will try that a lot. its just part of how the business operates.

    and I have recommended a number of times on here that when the workers show up, provide them drinks, etc and chat with them. being friendly with the workers goes a long way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    should be a business arrangement but the truth is, it rarely ever is.
    I guarantee the PB has the complete opposite viewpoint. it is completely business, 100%. there are two parties involved...the OWNER and the CONTRACTOR. each has a defined role. The CONTRACTOR can make suggestions on what he thinks should be built and spec'd out, but the OWNER makes the decision, not the contractor.
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Mod Squad YippeeSkippy's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Just tell him your kids are allergic to copper and you'd rather have......
    My Amazon Smile for November12K Fiberglass IG, Infinity 4000 automatic cover, SWCG, Hayward Sand Filter, Hayward 1.5 Pump, Doheny Discovery Robot, Savi Melody LED pool lights, outdoor speakers and other assorted doo-dads. Sundance Altamar Hot Tub.
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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Quote Originally Posted by DaninFLA View Post
    I deal with contractors every day in my line of work.
    First off, thank you for your opinion as it contains a lot of valuable advice. But, so as to not hijack this post with an Agree-to-Disagree difference of opinion, this will be my last post and I would say the above quote is where I would stop you.

    If you deal with contractors on a daily basis as part of your job which also involves large sums of money being transacted every day, then you have a very different relationship with contractors and operate in a business climate that is totally different from a residential pool build. It's business-to-business, and upsetting the apple-cart is way more detrimental to the contractors you deal with as you supply them with a steady, on-going stream of work. A one-off pool build job that goes wrong (in terms of starting off on the wrong foot) is no big deal to a PB. If it goes south, they won't be affected by it. As well, this is the OP's HOME we're talking about - the OP is way more invested emotionally than the PB is.

    I realize you're in the "business mindset" everyday and that dealing with contractors in an emotionally neutral way is an integral and important part of your job. But I would argue that a residential pool build is a much different beast than commercial projects. While I'd love to believe that emotions are not part of a transaction, decades of economic research and business process study clearly refutes the "it's all just business" transaction model. People have emotions, and those emotions are a part of every transaction we make everyday. They can sometimes be very beneficial to a transaction and they can sometimes be extremely destructive to a transaction, so attempting to understand those emotions and not unnecessarily raise tensions is worth the time and effort.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    Let the argument stop here please. If you guys wanna hash this out, create a new thread in Agree to Disagree.
    TFP Moderator
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    DaninFLA's Avatar
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    back to the OP's original question. have the contractor install what you want to install. I would recommend a SWCG.
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    I would say something along the lines of "i respect your opinion on pool building, but after researching different options i feel that xxx will fit my pool management better".
    32,000L Fibreglass Leisure Pools IG 12.5'x23'x5' Pump: AstralPools BX1 1.0HP
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    Re: PB wants to use the frog

    We looked a swg but he wanted 1300 for that and another 2000+ to change the walls from steel to polymer and we didn't know if 3300 could be better off elsewhere. Gonna be a vinyl 18x40 roman one end, dive, and sun deck. Approx 25000 gallons.

    420sq cartridge, 300,000 btu gas heater

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