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Thread: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

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    Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    First, I just want to say, thank god for this site!!!!!!!!! I have been "pool-stored" for the last 27 years, and I am ashamed to say I didn't do enough to educated myself before about a month ago. I knew enough to avoid "The Pool Store" like the plague, I hated how I was treated like an idiot there, but needed to venture there now and again when things got out of my control. Of course, then I would really get "pool stored" as I was at their mercy.

    I got my brand new TF test kit recently. (I had only been using 4-way test strips the last few years.) Researching on here, I know now why I was always fighting a low pH. Chlorine pucks!!!!! pH is good now (7.5), free and combined chlorine is good (4/4.5). However, no one ever, in 27 years, told me about the build up of CYA from using the tablets and powdered "shock." I feel so stupid. My CYA is off the scale (I'm guessing approximately 130-135). I am only using bleach now, nothing else will ever be added chlorine-wise. I know I must drain the pool most of the way and re-add new H2O to get rid of the built up CYA. However, currently we are in an epic drought here (the drought isn't just in California, although they get all the attention) and I don't feel comfortable morally or ethically using approx 15,000 gallons of water right now to refill my swimming pool.

    My question is, if I drain down the water in the fall for closing (and then refill to proper levels in the spring of next year), is all that stabilizer going to hinder this TFP method to close, using only the bleach and the PolyQuat (edited). For the last 27 winters, I have only added copious amounts of powdered chlorine to hold me over the winter and never had the slightest problem with algae in the spring. I am starting to worry that the new method is not going to work as well as it should with all the CYA in my water.

    Any advice/comments will be appreciated!
    inground fiberglass, 15'x39', 21600 gallons, installed 1988; solar blanket as only heating source; HARD water from municipal source
    Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter model S8570, installed 5/2000 - Sta-Rite Dura-Glas pump, one HP
    Polaris 380 cleaner, Polaris Halcyon booster pump

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    Divin Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Hi Lois,
    no need to be embarassed about how you've kept your pool for all these years. Im not defending the pool store folks for them not telling you about FC/CYA, likely, they did not know either. Most of the pool store workers knowledge comes from smooth talking chemical salesmen.

    The pool industry is aware of it, but they would all go broke if word got out and no one needed their expensive snake oil! It is not in their best interest for you to know what is going on in your swimming pool, or how to keep it sparkling clean. So.... don't feel embarassed about that.

    if you close properly, then your CYA should not be a big problem when you open. If covered, your pool should be fine.

    Lets hope for a very wet winter out west.



    Hope this helps,
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Hey at least you still have the pool! Mine was so bad the liner got so brittle it just cracked all over the bottom and all the water rushed out almost taking me with it! Come to find out my CYA was WAY higher than yours and I think the PH was way too low so.................bye, bye pool liner

    Good job finding FTP. You and your pool will be fine!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Chlorine is chlorine, when you were adding that powdered chlorine, it was also adding even more CYA (if it was dichlor or trichlor). So you can still add lots of chlorine when you close. It will just be liquid so it won't hike your CYA even further. When you are ready to open in the spring, the very first test you should run is CYA. Even before bringing the pool up to operating level. Then you can do some estimating to determine whether to drain some additional water (to reduce your estimated final CYA) before filling the pool. Make sense?
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Yes, makes sense. Thanks to all for your replies. Sounds like I should be OK for the winter, which is what I was worried about. Hopefully I can start 2016's summer in better shape CYA-wise.

    Thanks again to all. I'm so excited I found this site!!!!!!!!!!
    inground fiberglass, 15'x39', 21600 gallons, installed 1988; solar blanket as only heating source; HARD water from municipal source
    Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter model S8570, installed 5/2000 - Sta-Rite Dura-Glas pump, one HP
    Polaris 380 cleaner, Polaris Halcyon booster pump

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    Agent99's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    If possible, drain your water and use it on your lawn and plants maybe? It might take some patience to do it but you might feel better this way. I'm ashamed to admit that I just finished filling my 25,000 gallon pool but I started the refinishing of my pool and redoing my backyard (took out lots of lawn/grass) in March and it was only last Wednesday (7/15) that they finally applied the Pebble Sheen finish. Oh well. I'm curious what the local water company will do. A leaking pool started the whole mess for us so I have some leeway there but ugh, what a poor time to do all this. sigh

    I've been in the house since 1998 and this was the first time for a full drain and refill.
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Welcome to TFP!

    Close late as you can manage, and it reduces chances of opening problems like Algae growing or getting started in the late season.
    TFP Moderator
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    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick_B View Post
    Welcome to TFP!

    Close late as you can manage, and it reduces chances of opening problems like Algae growing or getting started in the late season.
    This is very important. Close after the water is solidly below 60 degrees daily. Covering the pool can help cool it sooner in the fall. Open before it gets above 60 in the spring. Algae grows much slower if at all below 60 degrees.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
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    CUTiger78's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Lois,

    You mentioned in your original post that your "free and combined chlorine is good (4/4.5)," but with your CYA off the scale (your guess: approximately 130-135), your chlorine is not good. It should be 10 - 16 w/ a CYA of 130. I thought 4/4.5 sounded low, so I checked it w/ PoolMath here on the TFP site.

    Also, I'm surprised nobody caught your reference to "bleach and the biguanide" for closing. I've never been a Baquacil/SoftSwim/etc. user, but biguanide is the active ingredient in that stuff and I'm pretty sure it's not compatible w/ chlorine. Maybe a real expert will chime in on this.

    Good luck!!!
    36K gallon 42X22 gunite/plaster kidney-shaped IG;
    1 hp Hayward Super Pump (new in 2012);
    Hayward S244T sand filter w/ Zeosand (both new in 2009);
    175K BTU LAARS Lite2 LG natural gas heater; Polaris 380;
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Hmmmmmm, good advice. I usually close mid-to late October (way past pool season in this neck of the woods) but I put it off as late as comfortably possible because I can't stand to look out in the backyard and see visual proof that summer is over and winter is coming.

    However, I also don't usually open until the very end of May/beginning of June, but I will have to re-think that next spring. I'm pretty sure the water left in the pool from winter is warmer than 60oF by then.

    Thanks to all for your wisdom.
    inground fiberglass, 15'x39', 21600 gallons, installed 1988; solar blanket as only heating source; HARD water from municipal source
    Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter model S8570, installed 5/2000 - Sta-Rite Dura-Glas pump, one HP
    Polaris 380 cleaner, Polaris Halcyon booster pump

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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    Thanks, CUTiger78, for catching my error. I meant to say PolyQuat. I have edited my original post.

    Yes, I realize a free and combined chlorine of 4/4.5 is not truly "good" as I had stated, according to PoolMath. But if I have it up to 10-16 ppm, my readings may be where they "should" be, but will I even be able to get into the water???? Like I've said, I new to this CYA stuff, but with the chlorine measuring that high, will the pool be able to be used by human beings? If I am reassured by you folks on here that my skin isn't going to blister off, I'll get it up to where it "should" be.
    inground fiberglass, 15'x39', 21600 gallons, installed 1988; solar blanket as only heating source; HARD water from municipal source
    Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter model S8570, installed 5/2000 - Sta-Rite Dura-Glas pump, one HP
    Polaris 380 cleaner, Polaris Halcyon booster pump

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    CUTiger78's Avatar
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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    You'll be safe swimming at Cl levels up to slam levels. If you actually have a CYA of 130, your slam level for Cl is 51 ppm.
    36K gallon 42X22 gunite/plaster kidney-shaped IG;
    1 hp Hayward Super Pump (new in 2012);
    Hayward S244T sand filter w/ Zeosand (both new in 2009);
    175K BTU LAARS Lite2 LG natural gas heater; Polaris 380;
    TF-100 test kit.

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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    10 to 16 ppm FC with 130 ppm CYA has the same active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level as 0.07 to 0.11 ppm FC with no CYA. This is because 97% of the FC is chlorine bound to CYA that is effectively inert -- it is just there as chlorine in reserve and is released as the chlorine not bound to CYA gets used up. You need to stop thinking about the FC level is meaning anything regarding chlorine's strength, because it has nothing to do with it by itself. It is the FC/CYA ratio that determines chlorine's strength. 10 to 16 ppm FC with 130 ppm CYA is the same as 2.4 to 3.8 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Starting to think about closing using TFP method

    OK, got it! Off the dump more bleach in the pool.......
    inground fiberglass, 15'x39', 21600 gallons, installed 1988; solar blanket as only heating source; HARD water from municipal source
    Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter model S8570, installed 5/2000 - Sta-Rite Dura-Glas pump, one HP
    Polaris 380 cleaner, Polaris Halcyon booster pump

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