After using Cyanuric Acid Reducer my pool won't hold chlorine

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J

jumper4000

0
Jun 1, 2015
12
Sherman Oaks, CA
My Cyanuric Acid was through the roof (I don't exactly know where it was originally because I didn't do a dilution test. Eventually I did), but after using 4 packets of this new product called Cyanuric Acid Reducer, it dropped down to around 35ppm. However, now no matter what I do, it will not hold chlorine. The pool was initially extremely cloudy since I hadn't put any chlorine in it for a while (in order to get the Cya reducer to work), but after using a bit of Tricholor shock (which increased my cya by a bit) and almost 30 gallons of liquid chlorine within 5 days, the pool became sparkling clear (VERY clear), but it will not hold chlorine for the life of me. In fact I stopped putting chlorine in it because I was wasting soooo much, and instead decided to do a 5 gallon bucket test to determine the chlorine demand. In my sample water, I've been keeping the chlorine at anywhere from 40 to 80ppm for the past 3 or 4 days and it's just not holding. I'm up to about 340ppm of chlorine so far (across 4 days), and it's dropping by about 20 ppm every 3 to 4 hours. I really don't know why that is. Somebody on these forums said, bacteria converts CYA to ammonia, so I thought maybe the CYA reducer does that too. I checked my pool and it's at about 4 to 6ppm of ammonia, but my sample 5 gallon water at this point, is at most 0.25ppm ammonia, and it's still not holding. What could it be and what can I do to get my chlorine to hold? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here are my numbers -

FAC - 0
CC - 0
PH - 7.4
TA - 125
CH - 375
CYA - 50
Ammonia - 4ppm (maybe a little more)

Thank you so much
 
Welcome to TFP! Your ammonia is 4 - 6 ppm, wow! It is gonna take a ton of bleach to oxidize all that ammonia...I'm sure an expert will chime in shortly, but I think your only options will be to add bleach until your FC starts holding or do partial drains/refills until you get that ammonia level down. The bucket test has lower ammonia because you have oxidized most of the ammonia and it will start holding chlorine.
 
You have two choices - water replacement or chlorine, lots of chlorine.

Chlorine will oxidize ammonia almost immediately, so you will never be able to have chlorine in the pool until all of the ammonia has been treated. You are going to want to find a source for 10 or 12.5% chlorinating liquid. There appears to be several HASA Dealers near you, so check one out. The sell higher % chlorinating liquid in returnable containers that hold 4 one gallon bottles.
 
I imagine if water replacement was a viable option, the OP would have just done that to begin with instead of using the CYA reducer?

Is there any evidence you had ammonia in the pool before you used the BioActive? Maybe you thought you had supre high CYA because the pool wouldn't keep FC, but perhaps you just had ammonia. How did you get your CYA level before you started to do anything?

The other option is that the reducer worked but created an ammonia problem, which I think would be the first report of that happening. I've heard of people getting ammonia over the winter when all the CYA disappears, so there is some relationship there already...
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for all the help and feedback. BuckeyeChris is correct, I can't (or don't want to) replace the water because of the drought in Los Angeles and California. Even though, it looks like treating this water will probably cost me 10 times more than the water, lol...

BuckeyeChris (or anyone else who cares about my CYA story), for the first couple years, I had a pool guy (actually 3) maintaining the pool, and with a ton of chemicals and hassle it was fine, but they really didn't know what they were doing, so I got tried of it and decided to learn this stuff myself. The first time I took my water to Leslie's they said, Cya was way too high, but they didn't do a dilution test, so they just said it was 140. The chlorine was just fine though and it was holding with absolutely no problem (in fact too well, since CYA was so high). So, I added the first pack of Cya Reducer and then Leslie's said, your Cya is at 120 (again no dilution), then I added a 2nd pack and again, Leslie's said 120. So I contacted CYA Reducer's support and they said anything higher than 100 is not reliable and I must do a dilution test for accurate results, so that's when I got my own Taylor 2006 kit and that was the first time I did the dilution test. Cya was at around 190 (before that, it could have been 300 or 400 for all I know). At this point, there was zero chlorine in the pool (in order to make sure the cya reducer works best), and by the 3rd day, my pool turned absolutely cloudy (couldn't even see 2 inches below) and the CYA Reducer started working like magic. My cya dropped to 80, so I got overly excited and added the 4th pack, and bam within a couple days it dropped to 35. Now, I got a little scared thinking all of my cya was about to disappear, so I added two bags of "Aqua Chem Shock Xtra Blue" (could that have messed things up?), and almost 30 gallons of liquid chlorine over the next few days. The pool turned crystal clear, but chlorine will not hold any more.

Everyone else, how much chlorine am I supposed to add?? In my sample 5 gallon water, I'm up to 340ppm of chlorine and it's still not holding. Ammonia is at most on 0.25 in sample water, but it's still not holding. What is the most cost effective source of chlorine? I figured 400ppm of chlorine will cost about $400. Is that really how much chlorine I might need? Is there nothing else that can get rid of ammonia (if that's the cause)? Do you guys know at what level I should keep the chlorine to most effectively destroy the ammonia?

Thanks so much for all your help guys.
 
It sounds like the first stage of Bio-Active worked where it broke down CYA into ammonia but the second stage of it didn't work where it converts ammonia into nitrogen gas. The product supposedly contains both types of bacteria so that when it works you aren't left with a huge chlorine demand. The good news is that it got the CYA level down for you. The bad news is that it will take a LOT of chlorine to get rid of the ammonia. If the ammonia test of 4 ppm is correct (and is in ppm N units) then it will take at least 32 ppm FC to get rid of it. As others have noted, you just keep adding chlorine and measuring until it's gone. Initially the chlorine you add (about 20 ppm) will get consumed VERY quickly and your CC will climb (as monochloramine is formed) but then you'll see FC hold somewhat and then the slower process of oxidizing monochloramine with more chlorine begins. This can take around 4 hours to get rid of most of it, depending on whether you've got any CYA left in the pool. There may also be partially degraded CYA that requires even more chlorine.

I'm actually being generous giving Bio-Active the credit here because it's also possible that when your FC went to 0 that bacteria in the environment (soil bacteria, for example) were responsible for the conversion rather than the Bio-Active, but technically they supposedly added the right bacteria. Maybe they expect the FC to not be at 0 in part to kill off the bacteria from the first stage so that those in the second stage can continue (if they weren't killed as quickly by chlorine). Just a guess on my part.
 

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but, so far, users that kept some FC in the pool haven't even had first stage success. I bet there is one perfect set of circumstances where that product totally works, but for practical application, it's too many balls in the air. balls in the pool.
 
For me, it did absolutely nothing even when I had my chlorine at 1 (although, in all fairness it could have, and I didn't know since I didn't do a dilution test till later). But, once chlorine dropped to zero and stayed there for a few days, that's when CYA started dropping like a rocket. However, now I have this other huge issue on my had. I'll keep adding chlorine to my sample water for a few more days to see if it holds... My suggestion to anyone thinking of using this product is that, if you don't live in a drought stricken area, most definitely, go ahead and replace your water as dealing with this product, can get enormously more expensive than changing your water.
 
One more quick question for you guys. Could it be that I've already reached the breakpoint? What happens if I go past the breakpoint? Should the chlorine just stay in water or will it disappear on its own? I've been trying to keep my sample water at around 60ppm. If there's no sunlight (water is inside) and there are no more organics or ammonia in the water, should the chlorine stay that high or will it drop regardless to something more practical?
 
jumper4000 said:
One more quick question for you guys. Could it be that I've already reached the breakpoint? What happens if I go past the breakpoint? Should the chlorine just stay in water or will it disappear on its own? I've been trying to keep my sample water at around 60ppm. If there's no sunlight (water is inside) and there are no more organics or ammonia in the water, should the chlorine stay that high or will it drop regardless to something more practical?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I totally understand the question, but if you keep pouring chlorine in the pool, as some point the ammonia will have been totally oxidized by the chlorine. At that point the chlorine level will begin rising as you continue to add it. If you see you are holding FC numbers, stop adding anything above normal shock level.
 
He's talking about the bucket test mentioned in the first post.

The chlorine in the bucket will slowly outgas especially if the FC significantly exceeds the CYA level. If you put a tight non-reactive cover on the bucket, then that should stop the outgassing and the FC level should hold better or at least give you a more accurate reading. Nevertheless, you losing 20 ppm FC out of 40-80 ppm over 4 hours is high enough to be real and not likely to be outgassing.

As explained in the thread Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA), every 10 ppm CYA degraded by bacteria to ammonia would require nearly 30 ppm FC to get rid of that ammonia. If the CYA were only partially degraded, then that could take even more. If you started at 190 ppm CYA and ended up at 30 ppm CYA, then that 160 ppm CYA drop could require as much as 480 ppm FC if it all got converted to ammonia or got partially degraded. Hopefully some of the bacteria did the second stage transformation to go from ammonia to nitrogen gas. Otherwise, you're looking at a lot of chlorine and unfortunately your bucket test seems to indicate that might be the case.

480 ppm FC in 24,000 gallons would be 133 gallons of 8.25% bleach or 92 gallons of 12.5% chlorinating liquid. That's $300-400 at usual prices. Ouch. It will also increase sodium chloride salt by nearly 800 ppm, though that's not a big deal.

So this is yet another reason to avoid the CYA Reducer product because even if it does work to reduce CYA, if it doesn't go all the way to nitrogen gas reliably then it can be a huge expense to get rid of the resulting ammonia and partially degraded CYA.

The mostly negative Amazon reviews have a comment added to each:

Jose Torres
I work for the company Bio-Active I would like to discuss your application on our cyanuric acid reducer.
Please contact us at 866-765-2704 or email us at [email protected].
Click to expand...

Have you contacted them about your problem and to they have any suggestions like paying for the chlorine or for reverse osmosis which at this point might be an even better option?
 
Chem Geek - is this CYA reducer just causing a nitrogen cycle like any fish tank would normally go through? If so, could you not let the cycle go to completion...0 ppm Ammonia, 0 ppm nitrites, then elevated nitrates. After the completion add your CYA back to the pool and then do a SLAM or would this be exceedingly slow?
 
Chem geek, thanks for the response, it's extremely helpful, but I truly hope I won't have to put that much chlorine in there. Although it's starting to look like it. Arrrrrgghhhhhhhhh. Will that much chlorine damage the equipment or plaster or anything? What's reverse osmosis by the way? Sounds like I could use it :)

Yes I have contacted their support (many times), at first they were very helpful. In fact, they sent me two free packs of CYA Reducer when it wasn't working (so I only paid for two of them at $54 each, it's pricey), but when I started experiencing this new chlorine issue, their general manager sent me one last email and he never replied again. That's when I turned to this forum hoping for answers. This is what he said -

Lora asked me to look into the problems you are having with your pool.

I have read all of your correspondence by email. To answer your primary question the product consists of 6 primary microbes and additional helper microbes. The packaged product is less than 1% microbes. The microbes are freeze dried and reanimate when they contact water or highly humid air. The balance (99%) is a nutrient substrate which feeds the microbes and allows them to multiply and emit enzymes that do the desired work. After a few days all the nutrient substrate has been consumed by the microbes. By day 10 all of the microbes have died of old age and the enzymes the microbes emitted have also expired. Nothing remains of the “Cyanuric Acid Reducer” after 10 days that could influence your water chemistry. Further our product can be wiped out by chlorine, disinfectants and metallic sulfates; because as the CAR is working breaking down the cyanuric acid molecules to their elements the chlorine being held by the CYA molecules is released into the water as free chlorine; this in turn slows down the action of the reducer.

The rate at which your chlorine dissipates is dependent upon the amount of ultra-violet light your pool receives and the level of cyanuric acid to retain the chlorine. At 55 ppm cyanuric acid (which is about ideal) your pool water should retain chlorine for about 3 days. Without the CYA the chlorine would only last a few hours. I am somewhat stumped at why the water in your pool is not retaining chlorine. My first thought would be to get a new bottle of indicator. It goes bad after a while and is not expensive. With a new bottle of indicator you should have a very accurate test. If you are using test strips and your pH is lower than 7.2 or higher than 7.8 the readings from test strips may be incorrect.

If the indicator is not the problem and your CYA is 55 ppm take a water sample to a pool store that tests water thoroughly. You would want the reading for total chlorine, free chlorine, pH, CYA and alkalinity. The more I know the better I can help you.
Sincerely,
David J. Bartoli
General Manager
Bio-Active Products, Inc.
Click to expand...

I did everything he said, but he never replied to my multiple inquiries. Also, I don't know what that Metallic Sulfate is he's talking about. Could that thing take care of the Ammonia?
 
Well yes you could equate the second phase to nitrification going from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate instead of to nitrogen gas and that would also be OK. The problem is that there aren't any microbes left to produce the enzymes to complete this. That is what is supposed to be in the Bio-Active. Basically, the microbes did the first stage breaking down cyanuric acid to ammonia or to intermediates on the way to ammonia, but they didn't do the second stage nitrification of ammonia to nitrite or nitrate (or an additional denitrification step to nitrogen gas).

Any attempt to restart this second stage by using more Bio-Active (with the FC brought back down first) could instead end up just breaking down more of the remaining CYA making the problem worse. Who knows, you could get lucky, but probably not. And it seems that most of the chlorine demand is with partially broken down CYA and not with ammonia since you didn't measure that much ammonia. I have no idea if Bio-Active can or will pick up where it left off with the partially degraded CYA. In theory it should if the bacteria behave similarly to what they do in the wild, but who knows.

The metallic sulfates would just be something that could kill off the bacteria, but I doubt you have any of those in your pool.
 
It would be nice to know, just for S & G, if you could test for nitrites and nitrates. If you have at least positive nitrites you would know if the nitrogen cycle is continuing. It seems to be possible that the bacteria introduced by the bio-active are still viable. When the nitrites and ammonia go to zero then test nitrates, which should be elevated.

I would love to culture that water! If jump4000 could overnight me a sample of water I could identify every organism in that pool, both aerobic and anaerobic.
 
Reverse Osmosis is a water treatment process that removes pretty much everything including salts from your pool water. For a complete treatment they use about 15% of the pool water's volume (i.e. you still use some water, but not the full amount). There are several companies in your area you could call to get quotes. Try Reverse Technologies in La Cañada Flintridge and Blue Canyon Pool and Spa in Orange County (though they may not go to your area).
 

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