Bidding a new pool

[Tjthrows]

Hello all,

We in the process of bidding a 20x40 vinyl with deep end. Three month season here in Ohio and I want the easiest way to maintain it possible. Looks like a possible fall install to save $. Any advice would be appreciated in regards to water treatment and hardware.

thanks

TJ

 

[Texas Splash]

Congrats on the decision to get a pool. While you are waiting for more forum member to reply, you might like to review this page: Pool School - Construction. Welcome to TFP!

 

[Yev]

Are you near Cincinnati? I have a builder recomendation if you do.

Also, do you have any specific plans on what you want in a pool in terms of water features, etc that might be easier for people to specifically help you out with?

 

[Tjthrows]

We are near Youngstown. I am really interested in how Ohioans a treating their pools in regards to the short season, rainy climate and ease of operation.

also, any hardware advice(filtration, heaters, swg?)

thanks

 

[Yev]

I am in northern KY, just south of Cincinnati. I have been swimming without a heater all of May, and will continue until early to mid September. Though the first and last few weeks are a bit chilly. Of course my pool sits in the sun the entire day, so it heats up pretty fast.

Due to the heavy snow potential in your area, I would get a mesh safety cover.

Due to the heavy rain potential, I would try to get an overflow drain, that way you don't have to worry about needing to drain it. This is also nice for the winter so you don't have to worry about draining the snow melt. Also, pay attention to the drainage of your yard, and work with your builder. You may need to make sure thatyou route downspouts away from teh pool, install a french drain, etc. It will be very easy for a non-reputable PB to say it will be fine, but make sure you are happy with how the drainage will work and not just take their word on it.

I just have a sand filter, and have had no issues with it at all.

As far as a heater goes, I pre-wired the pad at the pump and left space for a heater, but have not yet put one it. I am debating on if I need it or not. If I get a heater, I am going to go with a Heat Pump versus gas because it is cheaper to operate, and for my family, we are not likely to swim when the air temp is cold (Therefore, I do not have to worry about the limitation of a heat pump heating water when the air temp is cold. I think a heat pump can only heat the water maybe 30-40 degrees above air temp).

The downside of no heater is that without a solar cover or heater, a couple of days without sun and lots of rain like in the past few days, my pool can drop from about 84 to 76 in a few days. But since my pool is in full sun, once the air temp heats up, my pool will get back up to 84 in a few days as well. If your pool will not be in full sun, then I would consider a heater. For the month of June, I saw my pool get up to 86, drop as low as 74, and bounce between 80 and 75 several times

But in my mind, the pool season in Ohio does not create any true special needs.

If you end up with a vinyl pool and fiberglass steps, you can drain your pool more in the winter if you really want to, and possibly get away with using tabs, but you are better off not using tabs in the long run.

Does this help, or are you looking for any other information

 

[Tjthrows]

It does. Do use the bleach method ?

 

[DaninFLA]

bleach or saltwater chlorine generator. only options that only add chlorine to system and not additional stabilizer/calcium.

what equipment and options are in your bids? I would post that for review and comments, that's where most people either get the wrong thing, or spend extra money on something they don't want/need, but don't know it yet.

I would suggest a two speed pump (or variable - more money) and a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG) if you can swing it. that will result in the easiest maintenance as you wont have to lug bleach. 20x40 is a big pool and can require a lot of bleach. not sure how deep you are looking, but say an average depth of 5 feet would put you at 30,000 gallons. if you are losing 3ppm per day of chlorine, that would require a little over 1 gallon of bleach per day. not sure how much you pay for bleach up there, but over a 4 month period you could be looking at 90 gallons of bleach, or maybe $270 per swim season in bleach. a SWCG is probably gonna cost you $1,000 but eliminates the bleach need, and will probably last you about 4 years, so its about the same cost of bleach if you figure out per year costs, but you pay up front. plus new cell runs about $400 every 3-5 years or so, so you are saving a bit of money after that

heater is more of a personal choice

filtration - either sand filter or big cartridge filter. I have a cartridge filter and I like it since I don't have to backwash and maintenance is really easy and not very often (if oversized).

don't waste your money on UV systems, mineral packs, frog packs, in-line chlorinators, etc.

 

[kimmielea]

Hi Tjthrows!
I work in Youngstown and live in North Canton. I use the TFP method using bleach, I am looking into converting to swcg. This is my first season using TFP and have had a wonderful experience. I currently use a solar cover, and that gives me decent heat, I am watching for a heat pump to add to extend my swimming season!
So far, I have only had to add a bleach every other day and use maybe a gallon or so a week. I test nightly. Word of advice, when looking at pool builders, check the BBB for complaints and also, check the courts in Mahoning County and the surrounding counties for lawsuits! When the person I purchased my house from replaced the liner, he didn't do that... the company did not stand behind their work, I found several lawsuits against them, and needless to say, 3 years later, I had to replace the liner.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

My 2cents worth-

In my area gunnite and fiberglass installations cost about the same. Vinyl is cheaper, and faster than gunnite to install, but be aware that your vinyl lining will require occasional replacement at a few thousand a pop.

If you are undecided about a heater, put an extra long/large cement pad in for future needs and ask pool builder specifically not to crowd your pipes/valves/etc for ease of later work. You can add a SWG later fairly easily if you ask them to use connection joints to avoid cutting a lot of pipe for any changes.

If your budget is tight, consider avoiding all the extra automation or going simple. In my mind and budget that was just one more thing to break down. You might want one if where you are snows you in and you want to turn something on or off...but I guess you'd have closed your pool down by then? We don't close ours here in GA.

Get as much decking as you can afford (this is important!) as you'll want areas around the pool to place lounges and tables, etc. and narrow areas (like 3-4 ft) are a PITA to mow around as clipping and such get into the pool easily. MORE IS BETTER with decking, seriously! Get it now all at once because its not as easy to expand it later and have it look the same.

Take it for what its worth....YMMV

 

[Tjthrows]

I guess my big questions are gonna be

1. Cartridge or sand ?

2. Swg or bleach?

if my math is right 20x40 with 8.5" deep end and 4" shallow is approximately 39-40,000 gallons

- - - Updated - - -

And will a swg mess with my concrete or mechanicals ?

 

[Yev]

I see no downside of sand filter in the area, it has caused me no issues and I like fairly close to you. My pool is crystal clear (I can read a yard stick that is sitting in the 8 foot deep end).

Regardless make sure that you have the ability to pump to waste.

I would recommend an oval shape versus rectangle. The more rounded the corner, the easier it is to brush and keep clean. If rectangle, then use a 3' minimum radius corner. My pool is 18x40 (my signatuer is a typoe) and has 20,500 gallons, oval shaped with 3 foot shallow and 8 foot deep end with normal diving well ramp. I think yoru gallon estimateion is way too high. Remember that in the deep end, the walls are not vertical down to 8.5'. They will be vertical down for the steel wall length (4 foot for you) and then will taper down at a 45 degree angle or so until the bottom. This saves a lot of gallons.

My pool is in full sun, and I have a CYA of about 40. I add about 36-40 ounces of 12.5% liquid chlorine (bought from ollies at 2.99 per gallon) on full sun or heavy swim days. I am likely to add a Stenner pump rather than a SWG. The cell replacement is too expensive and I have heard too many horror stories of the cells not yet lasting long enough. A SWG or Stenner can easily be added later, just have the electrician wire an extra GFCI receptacle near the pump pad.

 

[Tjthrows]

I jumped on a calculator this morning and you are right about my first guess being too high. It said 20x40 would be 37,500. Now would dropping to a 18x38 be that noticeable of a size difference ? It drops the gallons by 5000.

 

[Yev]

As I said, my pool is 18x40, with a sun shelf built into the stairs, 3 foot to 8 foot, and it is 20,500 gallons according to the CAD drawings from the liner company. You can click HERE to see a picture if you want. (Had to use a wide angle lense so it looks a bit curved, but it is a true oval).

Here is how my PB worked. There was a base price for a IG vinyl oval. I think the size was 16x32. Then you coudl upgrade to 16x36, 18x40, and so forth. With every upgrade there was a price increase, because it used a little more concrete and two additional pool panels. For me, the 18x40 was the pricing sweet spot. Sure you can always go bigger, but my pool is plenty big. I have zero regrets about not going any bigger.

 

[Tjthrows]

Ok so two PB Came yesterday and both said some interesting things. Both deal with pent air, so all mechanicals will be pent air unless I request something else.

intelliflo pump
cartridge filter
gas heater
led lights
swg

now the big difference, one guy does swg with polymer walls and one does not claiming they are not as strong and the odds of corrosion are very small.

thoughts ?

 

[Yev]

I cant comment too much on the walls. But I do have a couple of questions for you. Maybe not so much questions, but thing that you should make sure that you are going to be happy with.

Why cartridge filter over sand?

Why gas heat over heat pump?

I would pick Sand and Heat Pump. I think sand is easier to maintain. As far as I can tell the only real advantage of a cartridge is its ability to filter out small particles. I have crystal clear water with my sand, so I cant imaging needing better filtering and the sand is basically maintenance free. I prefer the heat pump because it is cheaper to operate, and my needs are to heat the water during the season rather than extend the season There are pros and cons of all decisions, just make sure you know what they are, and that you will be happy with the choices.

And, not knowing the rest of the bids, make sure you get specifications on the number of skimmers, the number of returns, and if there is a main drain. I would assume that a pool of your size you want 2 skimmers, at least 4 returns and a main drain

 

[DaninFLA]

cartridge filters isn't much maintenance at all, as long as you get a nice large system. plenty of people only clean their cartridge filters once or twice a year.

another reason to consider cartridge is if do not have an easy way to discharge water when you backflush. where I live, I am not allowed to connect the pool to the storm or sewer system, and in my back yard is a large pond which I am not allowed to discharge to. would make having a sand filter difficult.

 

[Yev]

With the rains we get in the Ohio area, I just backwash the sand filter when I need to drain the pool a few inches. No effort required, no need to buy replacement filters.

another reason to consider cartridge is if do not have an easy way to discharge water when you backflush. where I live, I am not allowed to connect the pool to the storm or sewer system, and in my back yard is a large pond which I am not allowed to discharge to. would make having a sand filter difficult.

I would assume that any water bought from the water department you should be able to put down the sewar line, regardless of it it came from a toilet, a shower, or a pool. Seems like you have no way to actually get rid of any pool water. But back on topic, I suppose that finding out how to get rid of water is something OP should look into before deciding perhaps.

 

[kimkats]

Another thing to talk to them about is the pacing of the payments. They will try to stack the payments to favor them (of course). I would try to make sure that you have at least 20% to be paid AFTER the pool is DONE as in NOTHING left to do. I have seen where the final payment is due when they do the last pour BUT the pool is not done. NOT good.

Kim

 

[DaninFLA]

With the rains we get in the Ohio area, I just backwash the sand filter when I need to drain the pool a few inches. No effort required, no need to buy replacement filters.




I would assume that any water bought from the water department you should be able to put down the sewar line, regardless of it it came from a toilet, a shower, or a pool. Seems like you have no way to actually get rid of any pool water. But back on topic, I suppose that finding out how to get rid of water is something OP should look into before deciding perhaps.

you cant discharge pool water to the sewer here, its a local code regulation. only way to legally discharge your pool is infiltration into your yard, which is not a good option for backwashing.

 

[Yev]

Another thing to talk to them about is the pacing of the payments. They will try to stack the payments to favor them (of course). I would try to make sure that you have at least 20% to be paid AFTER the pool is DONE as in NOTHING left to do. I have seen where the final payment is due when they do the last pour BUT the pool is not done. NOT good.

Kim

Yep, could not agree with this statement more. Keep as much leverage as possible. If they have all of your money, then a less reputable builder can lack motivation to help. For my build, I paid a deposit upfront, but paid for nothing until the night the work was done. So once the excavation was done, I cut a check to my PB that night. Once the concrete was done, I cut a check that night. Then I held the final 15% until the pool not only pass my inspection but my local building inspectors final blessing.