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Thread: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

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    Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    I would like to cut my electricity costs. You can see what I currently have in my signature. All equipment is fairly old as far as I know other than the Single Speed pump, which was installed approx 4 years ago according to previous owner.

    My rates are as follows:
    321kWh @ $0.15 (tier1), 97kWh @ $0.19 (tier2), 227kWh @ $0.26 (tier3), and 45kWh @ $0.31 (tier4).

    This is with pump running approx 4hrs every evening.

    I'm assuming variable speed, but wondering if that is the right way to go and recommended models if so. I've seen the savings formulas/tables , but not sure how accurate they are or how soon it would actually pay for itself. I sure they have to be quieter than the pump I have now, lol.

    So if the filter is the correct size, I would like to make the plumbing look a little nicer and install a jandy valve of some kind. Right now it looks like a hack job in my opinion. I provided a pic. Not sure what the best set up would be or how to go about reconfiguring it. Hoping you all can throw some ideas out.

    I would like to be able to run the skimmer and vacuum port independently or at least be able to control them. I cannot do that now.

    As for features....pretty basic....two returns, one skimmer, one suction port. No waterfalls or anything of that nature.

    Appreciate your suggestions and if I can answer any questions or provide info to better help you help me' lemme know
    Thanks!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    You've got the runtime down which is a good start. But another cost effective solution is to just replace your current pump motor with a two speed: STS1072RV1

    On low speed, you will save a little more than 75% in energy costs vs high speed. A VS can save a little more than that (10%-15% more) so if you have a good rebate from the power company, it might be worth it to go for a VS.

    I chose a two speed motor replacement because it didn't require any replumb and I didn't need to add any surge protection both of which is usually required with a VS. Basically, I chose the path of least resistance vs the path of most cost savings.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Are you suggesting just replacing the motor itself? Like split my unit apart? Hmmmm....

    That's a huge savings, although I don't really know how much of our bill right now is pool only related...

    Are the pumps/motors fairly easy to install?

    Our power company is offering $200 rebate for a VS pump.

    How about installing a jandy valve? Difficulty?


    Does the plumbing look "normal" to you guys?

    How about filter?

    If I'm gonna have to redo things, I'd rather do it once and do it right, lol
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    With the $200 rebate we are being offered, how much more would you lean to a VS pump. As of now we also run a kreepy krawley vacuum daily if that matters for size of pump.

    Also have a heater. Does the type of heater and type of cleaner effect the size pump i'd need?

    Any recommendations on cleaning up plumbing?

    How about installing a correct 3-way valve so i can use the skimmer and suction port simultaneously?

    Ive got the $ saved now to do these things. I just need to figure out which pump (and size) makes the most sense and would benefit us the most and how to go about the plumbing.

    I plan on doing these things myself, so any other input, advice, or things i will need is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Agent99's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    pool-equipment1.jpg
    Here is a .jpg file from Sketch-Up which I used to rearrange my pool equipment. Maybe it gives you some ideas? We went through a full remodel of our pool and backyard so I was able to rearrange my pool pad exactly how I wanted it. Unless you jack-hammer up concrete, you are stuck with your pipes where they are but that doesn't mean you couldn't do a better job of rearranging things.

    pool plumbing.jpg
    And here is a schematic of my pool plumbing.
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Thanks for the diagrams! I dont have half the equipment you do, lol. Pump, heater, and filter. My main goal is to be able to have things the way they are "supposed" to be and have a valve that actually works. To be able to adjust the skimmer and suction port which i cant do now...i either run one or the other.

    It seems that everyone that has installed a VS pump is very happy with it also.
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Im going to begin seriously looking at pump replacements now. Kind of got put on hold temporarily while i was busy with other non-pool issues as well as trying to get my numbers back in line. All of my pump run time this month for aeration, etc has me cringing as i think of what my electric bill will be this month.

    So many choices when it comes to pumps. I was looking at the pentair and hayward sites. I figure i should figure out what size i actual need to start. They talk about ave ft of head and gpm. I did some measuring and going off of the actual measurements of my pool, its smaller than i had previously thought. Long story short, we somehow didnt measure correctly in the past.

    My question on figuring out ave feet of head. I did a guestimate on where the pipes run, but do you add the change in grade also? For example...if the pool is 5ft deep in the center, and assuming the main drain goes down 2ft before it heads to the pump, would you add in that 7ft as part of your calculation?

    Once i get that answer ill post my measurements and see what you all think. I think that might help determine a 2spd compared to a VS also. Obviously the 2spd replacement motor that was mentioned would be easiest....but if im gonna do it i want to make sure i do it right and make sure i give all of you the right info to help us along.
    Thanks.
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Forget head. You don't need it to size a pump. If you don't have a spa or high water volume water feature, you can just go with the smallest VS or two speed you can get. With pumps, smaller is better, except for spas.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Nice! Guess that was a waste of drawing and measuring, lol. No spa, no water features...although the kids like the "return sprinkler" for aerating!!

    Anyways....so then what factors go into choosing a pump with all of the variations and models out there? I was hoping to narrow it down quite a bit. I like your 2spd recommendation...just curious what the efficiency/cost per month/performance difference would be between that and VS.

    With either pump would it be able to run the skimmer and the suction port at the same time once i redo my plumbing? My KK doesnt work well if i split my existing valve to skimmer and suction. Not sure if its a pump issue or a plumbing issue. Although lately im not really happy with the KK's cleaning, especially since it runs everyday AND the pool is covered. Just want to make sure if i get a new pump i get the best one for my situation with room to spare. (Nothing wrong with my SS pump other than its loud and costs $$ to run.)
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Just to show you how much size doesn't matter, I have a 20k pool with a suction side cleaner and two skimmers and I run all that off of 1/2 HP two speed pump.

    I think a KK requires fairly high flow rate but not full speed flow rates so you are fine there.

    As for cost difference between a VS and two speed, a VS will probably save you more money over the life of the pump than a two speed. If you are familiar with spreadsheets, I have a pump spreadsheet in my sig that will do cost comparisons between pumps.

    Here is a version I did for $0.30/kwh
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Agent99's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    PG&E has some rebates for pool pumps. VS is $100. Check their website.
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Wow! What a spreadsheet! I was reading over your homepage too. Tons of info...some over my head, lol.
    I could t get the spreadsheet to load on my ipad to punch in my numbers though.
    I checked the GPM on each of my pieces of equipment.
    KK: 25GPM
    Filter: design flow rate 90 GPM
    Heater: min 25 GPM max 125GPM

    Other than that, one main drain, one skimmer, one suction port, 1.5" plumbing until it comes up at the equipment then goes to 2".

    So I've been searching and looking at pumps. Judging by what I would call a very basic pool set up, compared to others I see on here, lol, and by what the responses have been, it seems to me the lower HP variable speed pumps would be just fine. The Pentair supermax vs, Pentair superflo vs... (Both state they are a direct replacement for the pump I have now) Hayward super pump vs, tri star vs, maxflo vs. all are 1.5HP pumps.

    Not sure which one is best for my scenario, needs, and savings quite yet though. Haven't really looked at the specs other than trying to find the lowest HP pumps a available like you mentioned. They range from $650-$775.
    They all claim approx 80% savings over a SS. When you get into the bigger pumps 3HP they claim 90%. Not sure how accurate any of that is...many variables.

    By your posted spreadsheet it appears that savings wise, as well as initial cost the Hayward maxflo vs is the cheapest to run based on your specific input if im reading it right. Id love to punch in my existing pump to see what savings that looks like!

    I don't mind a little re plumb if need be as I want to change out the valve anyways so it works properly to run my skimmer and cleaner at the same time if I want to/need be without unplugging it all the time.

    So by what you said and what my equipment demands I posted...any of the 1.5Hp I mentioned would be plenty? Any pros or cons to any of these that you know of? I'll have to look closer at the differences between them all. Anything I should specifically look for to narrow my choice down?

    All of these numbers and variables are all new. Before I found this site I would have probably walked into the pool store and bought whatever they offered as they are what I thought of as the "professionals".

    Thank you again for all of the explanations and advice.

    Btw, im SCE territory not PG&E... SCE is offering a $200 rebate on VS pumps!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Yes, any of the VS pumps should work fine. However, there is a difference when it comes to control of the pump and the builtin feature sets. Most VS pumps now have a built in timer. Some of the older versions of the MaxFlo VS and SuperFlo VS pumps did not have a builtin timer so make sure you are getting the correct version. The MaxFlo listed in the SS is the older version, the newer is an SP2302VSP and if you have a Hayward controller, you want the SP2302VSPND.

    One other thing to consider is surge protection. VS pumps have high power electronics which are very sensitive to power surges so you will want to have surge protection for the pump to protect your investment.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Good info. What exactly do you mean by Hayward controller? Right now its just the pump that turns on by a hard wired timer on the wall.... Heater is turned on manually. As far as surge protection...where is that installed at?
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    What exactly do you mean by Hayward controller?
    Doesn't sound like you have one but Hayward and others make full featured controllers which control pumps, heaters, lighting etc. with wired and wireless remotes :Pool Automation | In Ground Pool Automation - Hayward Pool Products

    As far as surge protection...where is that installed at?
    Same location as the pump breaker. Usually at a sub-panel near the pool.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Yeah, I don't have any controller.

    So I've been trying to research pumps. The 3 Hayward pumps - Maxflo vs (1.5hp 106gpm) tri star vs (1.85hp 140gpm), super pump vs (1.5hp 87gpm), and the 2 Pentair pumps - superflo vs (1.5hp 113gpm) and the supermax vs. (1.5hp ?gpm)

    I can't get the spreadsheets to work.
    It's hard to find consistent comparisons. Some list certain specs and others don't. From what I understand, I should go with the ones designed for 1.5" piping. Anything designed for bigger pipes will cause restriction and be less efficient or overkill. So that eliminates the Tristar which also has a higher HP rating.

    Something I noticed was that some list, and maybe others are also and just don't say, aren't true variable speed, but a 3 speed or 4 speed. Are these preset speeds or are they adjustable presets? Are these just like a 2speed, with one extra speed?

    Displays... Do all come with one? The tri star is the only one that I could see that requires a separate display. Is it a standard for them all to show watts, rpms, etc?

    So many choices and I'm not really familiar with what i should be looking for. The only thing that might be added at some point would be a different cleaner and possibly solar.

    Obviously each manufacturer makes different models for different applications but I'm not seeing it. Pool store is no help obviously as they tried to sell me a 3hp unit when I first went in and now obviously I know it's way overkill.

    I did see that the pentair supermax vs got the "readers choice award for 2015" if that means anything, lol. It's also a direct replacement for my pump now. Has a display and 3 speeds.
    I was looking for info on it, then came across some discrepancies here : New versions of Pentair Superflo and Maxflo pumps

    Any guidance is appreciated.
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    EVChargeGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    I can only speak to the 1.5HP Hayward SuperPump VS as I have one, It's has 3 adjustable presets?
    You can dial them in to whatever RPM from 600 to 3000RPM.
    My #3 setting is the prime/3000 RPM @1136Watts. Although in my install it seems to prime at any speed.
    # 2 is 2240 RPM about 550W's, which is the speed needed to create enough pressure to fire up my heater, this also seems to create more flow than my old pump.
    # 1 is 1400 RPM @168W's.
    My old 2HP single speed superpump was 3450RPM @ about 2300W's. Note, this Pump is at least 18 Years old, most likely much more.
    so even running the new VS Pump at WOT it uses less than 50% of what the old Pump used
    BTW, some of the deciding factors for me getting this pump was it was less than $700 & plumbed in as a direct fit for my old SuperPump- I did have to get 1.5" unions in&Out.
    IG Tear Drop, Dark Gray Gunite , 27,000 gallons -Age 50+-years, very old Hayward Split Egg Sand Filter with side mount Multi-port- Hayward SP2600VSP Pump- Hayward chlorine feed (not used since finding TFP) - Laars 315K BTU Oil heater- LoopLoc Safety cover- AquaBot RAPIDS 4WD- TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speedstir- 390 Gal Hot Springs Spa Envoy installed May 2017

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Most of the lower end pumps (MaxFlo VS, SuperPump VS, SuperFlo VS, SuperMax VS) all have three preset speeds. The higher end pumps (EcoStar, Intelliflo, TriStar) are 8 preset speeds. Also, the SuperMax and SuperFlo are identical pumps except for the color.

    The pump connection really doesn't matter that much. Connecting 1.5" plumbing to a 2" pipe or visa versa will not change performance in a meaningful way.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    When Mark says preset speeds, he means that they are user set, not factory set.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Pump/plumbing recommendations:

    Ok. So i would assume 3 speeds would be plenty. Skimmer/turn over, suction cleaner, and maybe heater i guess? Any reason for more presets?

    I see a preset to "prime" is mentioned. Is that just to get the pump going everytime it comes on?

    I think ive narrowed it down to the hayward super pump vs and the Pentair superflo vs. Both state they are direct replacements for the super pump ss i have now. The gpm on the pentair is higher, but other than that from what i can see, they are about the same.

    Looking at the spreadsheet above, out of the two pumps, the superflo looks more efficient. If im reading it right, which makes me lean towards the pentair superflo.
    Is there anything that you can see that should persuade me one pump or the other?

    I called pentair about warranties...1yr if i have a contractor do it, and 60 days if i do it! Before i found this place i had a quote of $300 to install one!
    They tried to tell me the intelliflo was much more efficient and i said i dont need a pump that big.
    Thanks.
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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