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Thread: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

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    New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Hello. First just want to say thanks to all of you. Having never owned a pool before and being a Few months into caring for it myself, with the help of this site, we have a clear pool and seems fairly easy to maintain so far.

    So newest numbers are:
    FC: 7
    Ph: 7.5
    TA:200
    CH:1000
    CYA: 45
    Pool at approx 83*

    CSI level came out to .79 assuming I entered everything in pool math correctly.
    Been adding about 3ppm of bleach (8.25%)every two days or so give or take.

    Any suggestions or comments?
    Not sure how much the higher TA is a concern or the CSI level. Everything appears to be ok from what the eye can see. We get a chlorine smell once in a while, but not sure what's normal and what's not. Growing up at friends pools or hotels it's always a strong chlorine eye burning smell, which we don't have. Should we not smell it at all?

    Thanks!

    Oh and I know the CH is high....still working on appt for RO when guy comes through this area...
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Drive the TA down to 60-70. You're going to grow scale if you haven't already started. It's like sandpaper on the walls and people will get road rash from nothing more than scraping a knee or elbow against the pool wall.

    If you plug all your numbers into now and target, and then start playing with them individually, you'll be able to see when you move CSI into the safe zone. TA is the easiest. Acid and aeration will do it.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    I'll check that out. Thank you. Sand paper?! The one end, basically where the returns are, and straight across, so I'd say the last 7 or 8 feet on that end, the whole bottom is rough. Not the walls, only the bottom, like sandpaper. I called the glass place and they said sometimes it shoots rough and I could just "sand it" down a little. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough , but his answer didn't make sense, so I haven't done anything. The sides and the rest of the pool are smooth as glass, so I found it strange only that end was rough...wonder if it's the scale you are referring too?

    Thanks!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Not sure if you saw the above post, but does it sound like scale? It's been like that since we moved in and we thought it was something wrong with the surface.

    Also noticing some rust looking spots on the pool floor. Any ideas?

    So I plugged in numbers to pool math. TA goal of 70, would bring down CSI from 0.79 to -0.17

    I didn't see anywhere that tells how much acid to add to bring that down. You mentioned aeration too. Is there a guide for how much aeration and acid to add and how often. Also what brand and where to buy the acid. If not, can someone provide the steps? Obviously being a new pool owner, I've never dealt with this before...

    First task is obviously getting my numbers in line. Once that is done how do I remove the scale if that's really what the roughness is?? Hope it's not permanent and ruined?

    Thanks!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    From my own experience, scale is worse where there's poor circulation. Moving the CSI into the negatives will slowly - think glacially - remove it. Frequent brushing with a stainless steel brush helps. My theory is that it leaves microscopic scratches which increases the surface area so it "melts" faster. If you choose to sand it, Drywall Sanding Screens wrapped around a sponge work pretty good. It won't remove it all but it will round off the sharp edges a little. It will also leave grit behind as the paper wears down.

    Lowering TA is going to take several gallons of acid. How much probably could be calculated, but as soon as you add any refill water it will all change, so it's not worth doing, and you can't add it all at once anyway, so...

    Plug your numbers into poolmath and target 7.0 pH and add that much acid. Then aerate. When pH rises a few tenths, plug pH and TA into poolmath again and knock it back to 7.0. Repeat until TA comes down. Aeration can be pointing the returns up, kids with paddleboards, homemade PVC aerators, anything to make bubbles and ripples. Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    So the muratic acid I see at Home Depot in the gallon jugs is the right stuff? Is there a spot on here that tells you the procedure for adding the acid and aerating....like How much should I add at a time? Just pour it in and leave the pump running for a bit like with adding bleach? How long to aerate, how long to wait to test and add more acid, etc

    Is it ok to use the pool during this process? I would guess so since you mentioned kids with paddle boards.

    Thanks!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    806,

    Here's a link to the process:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...tal-alkalinity
    27' Above Ground, 18K gallons, 1.5 hp pump, Cartridge Filter, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Yeah, the MA at Home Depot is fine. Check the strength, though. The "low-fuming" or "safe" stuff is usually half-strength but full-price.

    Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity explains the how. Just plug numbers into poolmath and target 7.0 pH and add what it tells you to add. And then aerate until pH rises and plug the new numbers in and target 7.0 pH and add what it says that time. Just over and over and over until the TA gets down to where you want it. As TA drops, so will the amount of acid needed to shift the pH, so you'll have to use poolmath each time.

    You dribble the acid in in front of the return like normal and leave the pump running so you get the maximum aeration. People have devised all sorts of things to get the water churning. Use the search function for words like aerator and aeration and PVC and see what you get.

    It works like a ratchet and a nut. The ratchet is the pH. The nut is the TA. Acid pushes the ratchet down and the nut moves with it. Aeration lifts the ratchet up, but the nut stays down. You just keep pushing the ratchet up and down to screw the nut on all the way. Or lower TA to where you want it. The harder you push down - lowering pH to 7.0 but no lower - and the faster you pull up - vigorous aeration -- the faster the process goes.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Its been a while...but im now ready to aerate and work on my numbers. I used some pvc off of the returns....wondering which is better and will be quicker to do what i need to do. I e attached 2 pictures. Which one is better for more aeration? I assume he one thats shooting it in the air then agitating the water as it falls. I can put one of these on each return.

    Next question. Do i need a full day to do his and keep an eye on it, or can i do it everynight when i get home for a few hours? Ill read the links u posted again to refresh. Wondering also how much acid to start and how often to test afterwards....once MA is added, how long to aerate and test, then add again.
    I plan on posting once i start to get guidance as i go.

    Thanks!!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    You'll just have to experiment and see how fast the pH rises.

    Personally, when i did it, I just set the spillover hot tub to full blast and ran the blower and each cycle was only about 4 hours. You might like to see what happens if you shorten the setup in the top picture so it makes more of a fountain. If you prefer the sprinkler one, try angling the jets at the water so they drive air into the water at maximum velocity. But again, it's just experimentation.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Ok. I plan on starting at least one cycle tonight.

    I assume i need to leave T least the one return open with no pvc to get good circulation? I was going to put pvc on both returns to speed up aeration,but now that i think a out it, it wouldnt circulate the MA as well. Thoughts?

    *Pump on
    *Do a test first thing, get my numbers, plug into pool math so i know how much MA to add.
    *Add MA according to pool math slowly in front of one of the returns
    *Once acid is circulated, test for ph
    *begin aeration.

    Test and repeat process.

    How often should i test during this process. You mention it took you 4 hours. Is that the first time you tested?
    I may have to do this over several days because of work schedule, so i assume every day before i add MA or aerate i start with a fresh test and pool math.

    Let me knkw if im missing anything. Thanks for the explanations!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    I don't want to step on Richard's toes here since he's been advising you on this thread. But just in case he's busy for a bit, you have the right idea in your last post (#11). Test first, use the calculator (and acid) to get a pH goal of 7.0, let it mix. Normally we wait at least 30 minutes when doing standard chemical additions to water, but in your case, you are also aerating to increase the pH, so it may take a little while longer for you to see that pH rise again. You will have to watch and experiment based on the tools you have available to aerate. The more aeration you have, I suspect the quicker your pH will rise so you can do the acid trick again.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Kemtek muriatic acid from Home Depot is 14.5% and will cost you $11 for the two-gallon pack. Same at Lowe's. I need to check the, gasp, pool store and see what they have and charge. I keep forgetting when I go there but I'm adding almost as much acid as chlorine (not really...just feels that way with my new pebble sheen plaster).
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent99 View Post
    Kemtek muriatic acid from Home Depot is 14.5% and will cost you $11 for the two-gallon pack. Same at Lowe's. I need to check the, gasp, pool store and see what they have and charge. I keep forgetting when I go there but I'm adding almost as much acid as chlorine (not really...just feels that way with my new pebble sheen plaster).
    The pool store may be selling full-strength 31.45% Muriatic Acid. So if it's less than twice the price, it's actually cheaper.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Quote Originally Posted by 806pool View Post
    Ok. I plan on starting at least one cycle tonight.

    I assume i need to leave T least the one return open with no pvc to get good circulation? I was going to put pvc on both returns to speed up aeration,but now that i think a out it, it wouldnt circulate the MA as well. Thoughts?

    *Pump on
    *Do a test first thing, get my numbers, plug into pool math so i know how much MA to add.
    *Add MA according to pool math slowly in front of one of the returns
    *Once acid is circulated, test for ph
    *begin aeration.

    Test and repeat process.

    How often should i test during this process. You mention it took you 4 hours. Is that the first time you tested?
    I may have to do this over several days because of work schedule, so i assume every day before i add MA or aerate i start with a fresh test and pool math.

    Let me knkw if im missing anything. Thanks for the explanations!
    It's all just try it and see. Yes, mixing it and having it circulate will help. What's the weather like? Any reason you can't add your acid, let it mix, maybe brush a bit, then start both aerators and throw some kids in the pool to take care of the mixing?

    Here's a tip: when you plug pH and TA into poolmath to get the acid dose, then scroll down to the bottom and input that amount of acid in Effects of Adding Chemicals. The pH drop is an estimate, but the TA drop is usually dead on. You might discover the first bit of acid will drop TA by a goodly amount. I'd check pH every couple hours if you're being really aggressive with the aeration.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Started the process at 5pm tonight. Have will have two PVC "fountains" going...lots of bubbles. Pool math said to add 255oz of MA. I already had the KemTek brand from Home Depot which is 14.5% hydrogen chloride.

    Checking the "effects of adding chemicals" it only lists a 15.7% MA which I plugged in because it was closest to what I put in the pool. It said adding 255oz would lower pH by 2.04 and TA by 33

    Correct me if I'm wrong...but it looks like I'm gonna need a lot more MA.

    If the "effects of adding chemicals" is correct... Then my pH will only be down to around 7.4....if that's the case after testing in an hour...would I just add more acid before aerating?

    So for now, the pump is running with the first 255oz of MA added. I'll test after dinner and go from there.

    Btw... The Home Depot 14.5% MA is 11.99 for 2gal. I called Leslie's just on chance and like you thought... They have 2 gal of the 32% for 14.99. So I guess Leslie's would be the better deal for once... I only have 2 more gal of the 14.5% so ill use that and then grab the 32%
    Thanks!
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    It will take a whole lot of acid. No doubt about it.

    You will experience the following as things move along
    1) TA goes down
    2) The amount of acid to shift pH will go down
    3) It will take longer to get the pH to rise again
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Do I need the ph to test at 7.0 before aerating? So if I test here in a few minutes and I'm at 7.4....add more acid and don't aerate yet?
    13000 Gal rectangle gunite w/Aqua-Glass IG lap pool built in 1987 resurfaced (Aqua-Glass) in 2010, Hayward Max-Flo VS pump (model SP2302VSP)
    Rheem Gas Heater 266,000 BTUH (P-M267A-EN-C), Hayward Pro Grid D.E. Filter model DE3620, ThePoolCleaner, CoverPro safety pool cover, TF-100 test kit w/SpeedStir

  19. Back To Top    #19
    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Quote Originally Posted by 806pool View Post
    Do I need the ph to test at 7.0 before aerating? So if I test here in a few minutes and I'm at 7.4....add more acid and don't aerate yet?
    If you test it at 7.4 and you want to aerate to raise pH, then target 7.0 and add whatever poolmath calculates. You don't have to wait until it goes up to 7.8 top add more acid. Just don't let pH go above 7.8. That goes whether you're trying to lower TA or just keep it swimmable.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: New numbers and want some guidance if need be...

    Quote Originally Posted by 806pool View Post
    Checking the "effects of adding chemicals" it only lists a 15.7% MA which I plugged in because it was closest to what I put in the pool. It said adding 255oz would lower pH by 2.04 and TA by 33

    Btw... The Home Depot 14.5% MA is 11.99 for 2gal. I called Leslie's just on chance and like you thought... They have 2 gal of the 32% for 14.99. So I guess Leslie's would be the better deal for once... I only have 2 more gal of the 14.5% so ill use that and then grab the 32%
    Thanks!
    I've actually never used the "effects of adding chemicals" section of PoolMath...only the larger prettily colored table above it. In that one, you'll find the 14.5% MA.

    Thanks for the info on Leslie's MA. So doing a quick calculation:

    HD MA: 11.99/.145/256 = 32.3 cents/oz-% of MA
    Leslie MA: 14.99/.32/256 = 18.3 cents/oz-% of MA

    So, yeah, it ain't even close...nearly 2x the cost at HD!!!

    Well, I'm on my last gallon of HD MA and I'm done!!!!!
    ----Chris----
    25k IG/Spa Figure 8, 18x36, Pebble Sheen Blue Granite, Sta-Rite S8M150 Cartridge Filter, Pentair 460805 400k BTU Heater & 011018 IntelliFlo VarSpd
    Liquidator, Fafco Solar Heat, Polaris PB460 Booster Pump w/280 cleaner, Katchaleaf Cover, TF100 Test Kit, FAKE MAIN DRAIN

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