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Thread: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

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    Cool New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Hello TFP Forum,

    I have been tirelessly researching putting a pool in for over three years now since we bought our home. Initially, I wanted to purchase a home with a pool but with our time constraints and geographic constraints, I figured we would wait until we could afford it and design and put our pool in when we could do it. I went through an intense interview process and quote process of four different pool companies here in West Michigan and after many meetings and calling references, settled on Cove Pools in Grand Rapids, MI. I am attaching our diagram to this so that you can see our preliminary plan design and I will post updates as we get closer because the actual build doesn't start until Sept. 14th of this fall. I decided to go with a fall build because of the end-of-year specials you can get on equipment, cheaper concrete, cheaper landscaping, the ground will be harder so not as much tearing up of the yard with equipment and when I open it in the Spring, it will be ready to go!!!

    We are going with a 16'x24'x42' True "L" vinyl pool with Cantilever cement edging vs. the white coping for an upcharge of $1600. The pool includes steel wall braces with lifetime warranty, vermiculite and Portland cement bottom, 1 merlin 27 mil liner, 1 duo main drain, all plumbing and valves, Pentair variable speed pump ($1585 upcharge vs. 1 HP Pentair pump), Pentair Sand Filter with Zeobrite instead of sand ($69 upcharge), Nature 2 Ionizer ($220 upcharge to reduce chorine use throughout the summer), 1 Pentair chlorine chemical feeder, 1 stainless steel ladder, chemical start-up kit including solar pill, leaf skimmer, brush, 1 Smartpool Scrubber 60 automatic pool cleaner, safety rope, 1 8 foot step in the shallow end, 1 handrail for steps, 2 Jandy white LED lights (shallow end and deep end for an upcharge of $1391 vs. paying $712 for two incandescent lights), 1 6 ft. spring diving board ($865 upcharge), 2 deck jets in shallow and 2 deck jets in deep end (upcharge of $1160), mesh safety winter cover with anchors ($2300 upcharge), 1 Raypak 1 133,000 BTU Heat Pump ($4000 upcharge). The total price of the pool kit including tax with all of the upcharges comes to $26,775. Cove pools is throwing in the Automatic Pool Cleaner, Basketball System and giving me the winter mesh cover at their cost of $2300 and these figures are included in the total above.


    The price to come out and install everything comes to $13,225. I am paying an extra $2400 for extra cement because the install comes with 4' of concrete on the sides, 6' on the shallow and deep ends but I want 20' of concrete on the deep end because the 2nd phase of this project is going to be building a lean off of my shed and installing an outdoor kitchen with TV on the North side of my shed so I will need the extra concrete, installing a strip drain halfway from the pool to the deep end, I am going with 4' of concrete on the West Side of the pool with the ladder, 8' of concrete on the shallow side, 10' of concrete on the "L" side with lounge chairs @ $3.75/sq. ft. for the concrete. I also am paying Outback Fence Co. $2400 to install a black vinyl chain link fence around the perimeter of the pool and into the shed. By spring I will also have a 1/2 bath in the shed so there will be a changing room, toilet and sink so people don't have to run into the house.

    The total price for everything is coming to $44,375 and this also includes $1200 to have electric and plumbing run from the house to the shed that is 150' away, permits pulled and allowing $750 for landscaping because I mainly need mulch and lights since I am transplanting a lot of the plants needed.

    Let me know if any of these numbers are way off to anybody. I researched both going with Chlorine vs. SWG and going with the Heat Pump EXTENSIVELY this past year and called over 25 references each. Each person I spoke to would never go back to a gas heater after having this Raypak Heat Pump. They said it does take more time to heat up initially (roughly 24-48 hours but their cost to run the heat pump per month with the VSP comes to $50-$60 extra per month vs. $200-$400 per month with a gas heater. In fact the pools we went and looked at that had gas heaters weren't even running them because of the cost to do it. The people with the heat pumps were running them mid-morning to noon with the VSP and their pools were 82-84 degrees. They told me they swim from early May to end of September usually every year. I didn't know that actually Canada is the leading seller of Heat Pumps, so that kind of puts an end to the argument that heat pumps are only good for the people in the South. They also told me the Solar Pills do a great job of not allowing evaporation at night and keeping the temperature of the pool. The people also told me with the Nature 2 system, that they went from going through 3-4 of the 25lb pails of tabs per summer to now only using 1/2 pail in one summer and with the chlorine feeder, they don't have to worry about it if they go on vacation for a week to a week and a half. I will update everyone as we get closer to the build and my wife, 2 kids and myself are anxious to start swimming next spring and do away with our community pool membership that is 3 miles away from the house. Thanks everyone and your feeback is welcome!!Pool Build Scan 2015.pdf

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Welcome to TFP!!

    Go with the SWCG and not the Nature2. Nature2 is a 'Mineral" system, meaning they use copper to retard algae growth. The problem is that the copper slowly builds up in the water until it starts staining the pool walls and has the propensity to turn blond hair green.

    Tabs have a similar problem, they add CYA/Stabilizer to the water until the CYA level gets so high you can't keep the algae away.

    The only thing that adds chlorine to the water and does not bring along soemthing you don't want in your water is either a salt water chlorine generator or using liquid chlorine.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Tim,

    Thanks for the reply. I am pasting a link here: http://www.aquapoolstore.com/chemica...-sanitizer.htm

    I too had that worry but after talking to numerous people with SWG that wish they had chlorine again because of the slimy feeling of the water when they get out and not liking the "teary eyed" taste of the water, I decided to go the Nature 2 route. Also, Nature 2 has the "no stain" guarantee. I had the same concerns you do though before I talked to a bunch of references. Also, for the money you save in chlorine by having a SWG, that money quickly goes out the window when you have to replace a bad cell every 5-7 years. With the nature 2, you cut your chlorine usage over 2/3 for the summer and you only have to buy a $80 replacement cartridge every spring.

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Welcome to TFP!!

    Go with the SWCG and not the Nature2. Nature2 is a 'Mineral" system, meaning they use copper to retard algae growth. The problem is that the copper slowly builds up in the water until it starts staining the pool walls and has the propensity to turn blond hair green.

    Tabs have a similar problem, they add CYA/Stabilizer to the water until the CYA level gets so high you can't keep the algae away.

    The only thing that adds chlorine to the water and does not bring along soemthing you don't want in your water is either a salt water chlorine generator or using liquid chlorine.

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    New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Just a heads up that the cavalry will be along soon. In a kind way, they will be able to refute the claims of the mineral folks. I'd recommend hearing them out before dismissing them out of hand. The site values understanding the effects of all chemicals added to the pool.
    BTW- Welcome and I look forward to watching your build! It sounds great.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, SWCG, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking
    Spring 2013 Build | Dolphin Active 20 robot cleaner | Support TFP!

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    I am open to hearing anyone out and please, talk me out of it because I am all for saving time and money but I really don't want to go the salt water route. Growing up with a chlorine pool and hearing the negative things people said about salt water generators that had them and wish they would have went with chlorine has me thinking that. The people I talked to with Nature 2 systems all said they go through 3-4 pucks a week in their chlorine feeder and if they know they are going to be out of town for a week, they just put 8 tabs in and set the dial to satisfy the pool for 2 weeks. I am not positive, but only going through 3-4 tabs a week from May-Sep. wouldn't add the amount of CYA that some people are talking about. We then would be draining 1/3 of the water in late Sep. when we winterize the pool.

    Andy[

    QUOTE=bmoreswim;864029]Just a heads up that the cavalry will be along soon. In a kind way, they will be able to refute the claims of the mineral folks. I'd recommend hearing them out before dismissing them out of hand. The site values understanding the effects of all chemicals added to the pool.
    BTW- Welcome and I look forward to watching your build! It sounds great.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    SWCG and liquid chlorine pools act identically except how the chlorine gets added (electrically versus manually/with a pump). Salt water pools also have a higher salt content...just noticeable and offensive to almost no one. You will struggle to find any salt water people here whom you could tear their generators out of their hands. They practically all love them. They don't save money though versus bleach, it's about a wash all things considered.
    If you drain for winterization, that can alleviate some of the copper and CYA buildup which are the real issues with the mineral/puck approach, but they will likely occur eventually.
    Separately, copper is an algaecide not a sanitizer so if you do get some algae due to a lack of maintenance for whatever reason, you will not have sufficient free chlorine to eliminate it. Less margin for error.
    Otherwise, copper staining and green hair are the main risks as I understand. The CYA rise per puck can be calculated and then needs to be accounted for based on the CYA/FC relationship.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, SWCG, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking
    Spring 2013 Build | Dolphin Active 20 robot cleaner | Support TFP!

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    The people who are reducing their chlorine levels due to the Nature2 are possibly swimming in "unsafe" water. Copper/silver in Nature2 is an algecide. It prevents algae. Just because your pool does not have algae does not mean it's clean/safe/sanitary. You need something to kill the bacteria and Nature2 does nothing with that. I will quote our resident expert:


    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    EPA Approved Disinfectants
    There are only three chemicals that are EPA-approved as a disinfectant for swimming pools: chlorine, bromine and Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. For spas, the Nature2 system (silver ions) with non-chlorine shock (MPS) is also approved, but only for hot spa temperatures (i.e. not for pools). The reason these are the only ones that are approved is that they are the only chemicals that kill bacteria quickly enough to pass the stringent EPA DIS/TSS-12 which requires a disinfectant to kill 99.9999% of Escherichia coli in 30 seconds or less and 99.9999% of Enterococcus faecalis in 2 minutes or less and that maintain a residual in the bulk pool water. UV and ozone kill pathogens quickly, but do not leave a residual in the water (more about ozone later) and in residential pools they are generally not needed when using chlorine -- the primary exception being indoor pools where UV can be helpful as a supplement in reducing chloramines since there is no sunlight.

    Now these stringent requirements are only a legal requirement in commercial/public pools as dictated by state and county/city laws. For residential pools, the EPA standard (via FIFRA regulations) just regulates what can be claimed by products on labeling and in advertising, namely that they can only claim to be a disinfectant or to kill (public health) bacteria if they pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 and are also demonstrated to be safe. So technically, you can do whatever you want in your pool the same way that commercial kitchens are regulated with strict sanitary standards but you can do whatever you want in your own kitchen.
    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    The way that the copper ions from the Nature2 lower chlorine usage and levels is that they are an algaecide. So in theory you can use a lower FC level for a given CYA level than what we recommend, but as you found out you are still getting some algae now and then so clearly the copper ions aren't working well for you. That's probably because the level is too low. When the builder says there won't be staining, that also means the copper level isn't enough to prevent algae growth. The level of copper needed to prevent algae is very close to the level that can cause staining of plaster unless you keep your pH low. There are other copper-based systems, such as Ecosmarte, that explicitly tell people to keep their pH much lower to prevent staining (but they also used to claim that copper disinfects which isn't true since it does not kill fecal bacteria).
    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    The reason is that you have to have a fast-acting disinfectant in the bulk pool water to kill pathogens quickly to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease and also to prevent pathogen growth on pool surfaces. Metal ions simply do not kill fast enough by themselves. It takes chlorine (at an FC of around 10% of the CYA level) less than one minute to do a 99% kill of most bacteria, but takes silver ions 10-20 minutes and copper ions 40 minutes. Though UV is very effective at killing pathogens, it only does so when the water passes through the system and it takes 2.3 turnovers to have 90% of the water pass through and 4.6 turnovers (i.e. many, many hours) to have 99% of the water pass through.

    Also, metal ions are not effective (at pool concentrations) at inactivating viruses. For example, this paper shows that copper ions do a 90% inactivation of Herpes Simplex Virus in 30 minutes at 100-200 ppm, but that is far, far higher in concentration than found in pools (copper is usually < 0.3 ppm in pools). This paper shows that silver ions have virtually no effect on vacciniavirus, adenovirus, VSV, poliovirus, HVJ, but that with herpes simplex virus there is a 5-log kill in 60 minutes (roughly a 90% kill in about 5 minutes), but at over 3200 ppb compared to the usual limit of 20 ppb to prevent silver staining.
    This one I just found interesting
    Quote Originally Posted by Durk View Post
    If that's not enough, be aware that the cartridges can fail and release all their little copper and silver pellets into the return stream. In my case, they did it while I was traveling and the little balls rolled all the way to the main drain and got sucked back into the pump trap. The resulting staining on my brand new white plaster pool was horrible.

    I took a mayo jar of the little balls down to the PB's office and he took one look and said, "Ahh, your Nature2 exploded." I wasn't the first, obviously. I ripped out the darn thing.
    Now to quote Dave, Site Owner of TFP:
    Throughout TFP, you will read that we suggest certain levels that good science and practical experience has taught us fall within safe ranges.

    Further reading of posts here will draw you to the inescapable conclusion that these guidelines work.......in thousands and thousands of pools worldwide.

    You may or may not choose to use these methods and guidelines or you may use some and not others. Our goal is to teach you what has been proven time and time again and then let you use that information to your benefit.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    I have forwarded your quotes to Cove Pools and I am awaiting their response to my email. It will be interesting to say the least. I also brought up to him last week the fact that I am hearing a lot of people maintaining their pools with liquid bleach and he looked at me confused. Said that he agrees if you are shocking your pool but not for maintaining chlorine levels. He told me that if I were to use liquid bleach to maintain the pool, I would be dumping a jug of bleach in each day. Granted, I know pool builders are going to respond like this because they want to make money selling chemicals as well. With the size pool I have going in, what is a realistic expectation of the amount of liquid bleach I would use daily. Most pool companies agree that my tablet consumption would go from 3-4 25lb pales/summer to 1/2 pale by having the Nature 2 system. Thanks and just trying to make the best decisions possible!

    Andy


    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    The people who are reducing their chlorine levels due to the Nature2 are possibly swimming in "unsafe" water. Copper/silver in Nature2 is an algecide. It prevents algae. Just because your pool does not have algae does not mean it's clean/safe/sanitary. You need something to kill the bacteria and Nature2 does nothing with that. I will quote our resident expert:








    This one I just found interesting

    Now to quote Dave, Site Owner of TFP:

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    How many Gallons is your pool going to be?

    Mine is 25,600 gals. I use anywhere from 5 to 7 cups of chlorine (11%) a day during the summer depending on the sun and swimmer load.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    34,020 gallon pool and will be in the sun pretty much all day from 11 AM- 6 to 7 PM as there are no trees around it at all. I have two little kids and my wife, who stays at home with them so they will be using it whenever they can

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    I really like your thought process on the many details. Upgrading just a bit further from white LED's to color LED's would not disappoint. Hard to underestimate the cool factor. Also hard to underestimate the lawn damage that will occur, regardless of the timing.

    I believe the discussion of heat pumps being less optimal in the north is generally discussed in relation to winter heating where the ambient temps are much lower than farther south, resulting in lower efficiencies. For that exact reason, the summer in Canada/up north is a great place to use heat pumps for pools, because the ambient temps are moderate (probably average in the low 70's overall) and there is a need for consistent heat, not just a quick heat up to start off the season or for the spa. And that's where heat pumps shine.

    With all that concrete, you may be interested in having the PB or their concrete sub layout the exact locations of both the expansion joints and the control joints to ensure the most visually appealing and functional design. Also, one thing that comes up now and again is what material will be in the expansion joints. Some use plastic pieces which will crack and look crappy eventually, others use a closed cell foam with a 1/2 x 1/2" tear-out strip to allow for caulking, still others use a fiber based material.

    Not sure where the slimy feeling comments came from regarding water with a salt level of about 3500 ppm. Sounds like algae to me from some unrelated issue. This "unrelated" issue comes up often. The best example is when folks say that a pool they visited smelled strongly of chlorine. Then you ask them, oh you mean it smelled just like bleach? And they say, no not the clean smell like bleach but something else. That's combined chlorine (CC) which is the combination of chlorine and bacteria after it has killed the bad stuff and before it has oxidized. Well maintained pools, by TFPC methods, result in water that is crystal clear and inherently safe and will have almost no smell at all (and nothing offensive smelling for sure).

    Lots to consider when building a pool as your research has shown. Good job so far!
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
    Hayward equipment (cartridge filter, 2-speed pump, SWCG, automation) View Our Build
    Coverstar automatic pool cover | StoneMakers concrete retaining wall and decking
    Spring 2013 Build | Dolphin Active 20 robot cleaner | Support TFP!

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Andy, I really wish you had someone in your area that had a SWG pool or even just a well maintained chlorine pool so you can see and feel how good it is!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    First of all, can you find in the Zodiac limited warrantee where they guarantee against stains and will pay to repair your copper stained pool? The warrantee simply warrants that Zodiac products are "free from manufacturing defects in materials and workmanship" and the specific no-stain warrantee is in the owner's manual, but look at the Nature2 Cartridge Owner's Manual (or DuoClear Cartridge Owner's Manual) where it says:

    THE LIMITED WARRANTIES OF THE NATURE2 G CARTRIDGE, NATURE2 M CARTRIDGE AND NATURE2 VC CARTRIDGE ARE:
    Nature2 G Cartridges, Nature2 M Cartridges and Nature2 VC Cartridges are warranted to be free of defects in materials and to perform satisfactorily for a period of six months from the date of purchase. Nature2 G Cartridges, Nature2 M Cartridges and Nature2 VC Cartridges are warranted not to cause copper staining in your pool. This limited warranty requires that you exercise reasonable care of your pool and keep water in balance at all times and not use a copper-based algaecide. This limited warranty does not cover discoloration to chromium fittings. This warranty does not cover cartridges used with any biguanide products. If the cartridge is defective and does not perform satisfactorily for the entire six (6) months, we will make a prorated rebate based on your actual period of use. You are responsible to pay the below-indicated percentage on the then applicable retail cost: < 1 month-0%; 1-2 months- 25%; 3-4 months-50%; 5-<6 months-75%.

    EXCLUSIONS FROM WARRANTY
    Nature2 G Cartridges, Nature2 M Cartridges and Nature2 VC Cartridges are designed for use on inground pools from 5,000 to 45,000 gallons, depending on cartridge model. If it is used in any other application, the warranty is void, and the purchaser and/or pool owner releases the manufacturer from any and all claims related to the use of the Nature2 Sanitizer.

    This warranty does not cover problems arising in whole or in part from purchaser’s negligence, misuse or abuse, improper maintenance or storage, accident, improper installation, improper application, failure to follow all appropriate safety precautions, Acts of God, abnormal weather conditions, damage from plants or animals, and improper use of chemicals.

    This warranty specifically excludes all incidental or consequential damages, except where state law requires them to be paid. This warranty gives you specific rights. You may have other rights that vary from state to state.
    If your plaster pool gets stained, they will refund the cost of the cartridge, NOT make any payment for the repair of staining in your pool!

    I did a quick search for some of the reports of copper staining from Nature2 and a partial list is reported staining from smallpooldad, geekgranny, Thump4863 and jkolacny, plus reports that it didn't prevent algae (either visible algae or cloudy water) or didn't seem to do anything and was expensive to operate from 257WbyMag, Berggy, jcmac and jeffdw. Of course there are some people who haven't had problems, but as Dirty Harry said, "you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"

    You have a very large pool and that is going to be harder to maintain by manually dosing with chlorine. A saltwater chlorine generator would make more economical sense. If you insist on dosing with chlorinating liquid or bleach and want to minimize the amount you will need, then you can supplement with products to prevent algae that may let you use a lower FC/CYA level so let you use less chlorine, but it could be costly depending on the approach. If you have a vinyl pool and no one with blond hair then maybe copper would possibly be an option, but with a plaster pool I wouldn't chance it. You have to maintain the copper level high enough to prevent algae but low enough to prevent staining and that means also keeping the pH low enough as well. Other alternatives (at extra cost) are to add Polyquat 60 weekly or to use a phosphate remover (mostly one time, but with maintenance dependent on phosphate levels in fill water or other sources).
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    This is what the PB sent me back by email this morning in response to the quotes above that Tim5055 mentions:

    "Hi Andy,
    The article supports what I told you about Nature2 systems. It is NOT asubstitute for chlorine or bromine. It inhibits algae growth through themetal ions in the cartridge. Because the algae is prohibited, you don'tneed as much chlorine in the pool because you don't need it to fight off algae. Hence, the 80% reduction in the need for chlorine. You still needchlorine in the pool. There is no substitute for that. The articleis wrong in the fact that you can use it as a stand alone in a hot tub. typically, the level of bacteria in a hot tub is 50 times that of a pool. A Nature2 system will not work by itself in a hot tub. As for thecomment about a Nature2 cartridge "erupting" in a pool? In my21 years in this business I have NEVER seen it happen- not once. So theNature2 will lower the need for chlorine in your pool, and reduce the amountyou need in the pool. By the way, this article contradicts itself- at onepoint indicating there isn't enough copper ion to stain a pool, yet twoparagraphs later someone claims it stained his pool. All I can say is i havebeen using Nature2 on both my old pool and my new pool for 16 years and havenever had algae grow in either of them. And, I have been able to reducemy chlorine levels by 75-80%. You can't believe everything youread. Let me know if there is anything more I can help you with."




    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    First of all, can you find in the Zodiac limited warrantee where they guarantee against stains and will pay to repair your copper stained pool? The warrantee simply warrants that Zodiac products are "free from manufacturing defects in materials and workmanship" and the specific no-stain warrantee is in the owner's manual, but look at the Nature2 Cartridge Owner's Manual (or DuoClear Cartridge Owner's Manual) where it says:



    If your plaster pool gets stained, they will refund the cost of the cartridge, NOT make any payment for the repair of staining in your pool!

    I did a quick search for some of the reports of copper staining from Nature2 and a partial list is reported staining from smallpooldad, geekgranny, Thump4863 and jkolacny, plus reports that it didn't prevent algae (either visible algae or cloudy water) or didn't seem to do anything and was expensive to operate from 257WbyMag, Berggy, jcmac and jeffdw. Of course there are some people who haven't had problems, but as Dirty Harry said, "you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"

    You have a very large pool and that is going to be harder to maintain by manually dosing with chlorine. A saltwater chlorine generator would make more economical sense. If you insist on dosing with chlorinating liquid or bleach and want to minimize the amount you will need, then you can supplement with products to prevent algae that may let you use a lower FC/CYA level so let you use less chlorine, but it could be costly depending on the approach. If you have a vinyl pool and no one with blond hair then maybe copper would possibly be an option, but with a plaster pool I wouldn't chance it. You have to maintain the copper level high enough to prevent algae but low enough to prevent staining and that means also keeping the pH low enough as well. Other alternatives (at extra cost) are to add Polyquat 60 weekly or to use a phosphate remover (mostly one time, but with maintenance dependent on phosphate levels in fill water or other sources).

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    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    As a fellow Michigander and GR area pool owner (Grandville), I would have to say that the cost of chlorine is relatively low for a pool of your size. My pool is roughly the same size and I might use a gallon a week (12.5%) if all of my other water levels are correct.

    A question for you that I haven't seen asked is have you read all of the pool school materials and looked at the pool math page. You can apply some simple math to see how much your chlorine might cost for maintenance. I would weigh the cost of the cartridges vs. the cost of chlorine.


    I will tell you that before I found this site a few years ago that I had a pool that was not clear or enjoyable to swim in. I would spend a minimum of $200/week for chemicals with no results or worse results. I spent the time to read and learn and listen to advice from people trying NOT to make a living from my purchases. I rarely go to a pool store other than to buy liquid chlorine any more. I spend maybe $200/season for chemicals, my pool water has been clear with minimal effort and I became a 'mad scientist' by learning to test and resolve my water issues with household (inexpensive) products. And did I mention that I only have to 'shock' my pool is when I have been negligent?


    I will be installing my replacement liner tonight, otherwise I would have you come over to check out my pool. I cannot expound on the superlatives you can find on this site on how owning a pool went from being a chore to being a joy. If you have 10 minutes a night, you can have a crystal clear pool the entire summer. The only 'work' will be vacuuming. Heck, I stand in the pool when I do it just to enjoy the water even more!
    Dale
    Grandville, MI - 25,000 gal vinyl pool, Haywood Filter with Zeosand

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rockford, MI
    Posts
    13

    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Dale,

    Thank you for the reply and I am going to take your advice. I will read the pool school materials and math page tonight, although I thought for the math page, you needed actual numbers to figure things out and by me not having the pool in yet, I thought that would be tough to navigate through. I am going to have them take the Nature 2 Ionizer off of the list of things to install and just maintain with Liquid Chlorine because I am not a fan of Bacteria growing in my pool with 2 little ones swimming in it and with the chlorine being so low with the Nature 2, I think I am going to open myself up to problems. Where do you buy your liquid chlorine from or do you use liquid bleach in the 12% form? I would love to see pictures of your pool when it is back up and running. I also have decided to go with the Pentair Intellibrite LED lights (one in the shallow and one in the deep) and the PB is throwing in the Pentair light controller for me. Thanks again!

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Regarding what the PB wrote to you, let me correct some things about it.

    He is right that if you have the copper levels high enough, then it will prevent algae growth because copper ions are an algaecide. However, how much chlorine you save because of this depends on the FC and CYA levels you choose. To save 80% compared to what we recommend would mean an FC/CYA level of 0.2*7.5% = 1.5% which would be around 1 ppm FC in 70 ppm CYA. That is getting riskier with respect to disinfection rates and oxidation will be slower so if you have moderate bather-load or blown-in debris the pool might get more dull/cloudy for longer. If you read my post, I said that if you wanted to use a lower FC/CYA level you could do so by supplementing with extra cost products to prevent algae -- copper is just one option for that, phosphate remover is another, weekly Polyquat 60 algaecide is another. I wouldn't go below 2%-3% for the FC/CYA ratio, however, but that would still save you more than 50% in chlorine usage so you could balance that cost against the algae prevention approach you take.

    He is absolutely positively wrong about Nature2 use in a hot tub without chlorine or bromine. The EPA has approved Nature2 use with non-chlorine shock (MPS) because it passes the very stringent EPA DIS/TSS-12 test. The reason this works is that with the hotter water temperatures in a spa (and those are required -- the system is NOT approved for pools), the silver ions react with the persulfate to produce divalent silver and sulfate radicals both of which are more powerful disinfectants than regular silver ions or MPS on their own.

    This link is to the EPA website in the PPLS system showing that Nature2 for Spa use is registered with the EPA as a disinfectant and in particular look at the links that include statements from the product manuals where it explicitly states that MPS can be used, not chlorine (it's a "low-chlorine" recipe because chlorine is only used "as needed" to keep the water clear, not as the primary disinfectant). This link shows the same thing on the NPIRS website. Note that there is also this registration for Nature2 for pools, but it requires chlorine to be used while the spa does not. Why don't you show these to your PB to let him know that he does not know everything and that this site is indeed accurate.

    I really think that with your 34,000 gallon pool you are going to hate buying and using roughly 4 gallons of 12.5% chlorinating liquid weighing every week nearly 40 pounds (or over 5-1/2 gallons of 8.25% bleach weighing about 50 pounds), and that assumes a chlorine use of 2 ppm FC per day and yours might be higher (usual is 2-3, but some are higher in hotter sunnier areas). A saltwater chlorine generator would make maintenance a lot easier. Or as I noted above, if you want to lower your chlorine usage which is really what the PB is trying to do, you can do that but understand the consequences which at least with your vinyl pool are less of a problem for copper than a plaster pool, but consider the other alternatives to lower chlorine usage. You can, of course, start off just using chlorine without algaecide products and see how it goes for you since you can easily add any of the algaecide alternatives separately if you decide to go that route.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    As you can see most of the folks on here are not to supportive of the Nature 2 system. My pool has one and I no longer use it. I use liquid chlorine injected into my return lines with a Steiner pump. It injects measured amounts of chlorine every day while the pump is running. It works well and I only have to fuss with chlorine once every three weeks or so.

    My problem with the Nature 2 is that you can't actually measure what its doing. Nowhere in the manual does it tell you how to measure how much copper is actually in your water or how much is supposed to be in your water. It just assumes the cartridge lasts 6 months. Because I never "close" my pool I have to purchase 2 per year -- one of which sits in the system but I never swim.

    The Nature 2 manual tells you to have at least >5 of chlorine in the pool but they don't tell you that you they mean free chlorine, which depends on your cya level. Chem Geek will tell me I'm wrong here but the Pool Calculator on here doesn't call for much higher levels of free chlorine than the Nature 2 - it just takes into account the cya in the water. Nature 2's manual doesn't explain that.

    The instruction manual is clear -- if your pool gets algae -- super chlorinate your pool -- but they don't tell you what that means. If you use the pool calculator on here it tells you exactly what you should add to your pool. (and for that matter what you don't need) With the Nature 2 I was wondering what is my level?

    Your PB also is setting you up for tabs -- tabs are a great painless way to chlorinate your pool. They have one major problem -- especially in California -- tabs require that you do at least partial drains and refills of your pool every year--- The PB won't tell you that --Some pool stores won't tell you that -- but that is almost always the effect of tabs -- maybe in Texas, Florida and Hawaii where you get massive amounts of rain you could avoid partial drains. Because tabs add stabilizer, Cyanuric acid, CYA --the only way to remove it is to do at least a partial drain. Read the threads in the algee prevention sub forum -- at least 75% of those with algae problems have high cya.

    So with my experience and my desire to know what is in my pool I don't use my Nature 2.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    The weather in Grand Rapids, Michigan (not far from Rockford) is shown in this link where it looks like your swim season may be from May to September at best. If you used 2 ppm FC per day, then using Trichlor tabs would have the CYA climb by 36 ppm per month so over 5 months that would be 183 ppm which is obviously high. Your PB is saying to use copper as an algaecide so is trying to get your chlorine usage down so perhaps drop it in half and get it to 1 ppm FC per day in which case the CYA rise would be 90 ppm (so starting at 30 ppm you'd end up with 120 ppm). With the algaecide and an FC/CYA ratio of 2-3% so around 2-3 ppm FC you'd be OK for one season.

    The issue then becomes what about the next season. Because you close your pool due to freezing temperatures in the winter (is that right? Do you close your pool?), you would get a partial drain/refill that will get rid of some of the CYA, but that partial drain/refill may only be about 1/3rd of the pool water so gets you down to 80 ppm CYA. Unless you are lucky to have bacteria convert the CYA into nitrogen gas over the winter, you now start off your second year with the CYA higher. Do you see how the use of Trichlor tabs even with an algaecide can still lead to problems, if not in the first year than in subsequent years? If the CYA continues to climb, the chlorine becomes less and less effective (unless you proportionally raise the FC target) and at some point even the algaecide may not be enough and the oxidation power of chlorine will also be lower so the water can turn dull to cloudy from either algae or bather waste accumulation or both. Eventually even the rate of disinfection becomes low enough to be of concern.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Portage, MI
    Posts
    12

    Re: New Pool Build In Rockford, MI

    Andy,

    I've been lurking on here for several years, but I'll chime in here as I'm in your neck of the woods...

    My wife had our pool spec'd and built prior to meeting her about 5 years ago. She had the AquaRite T-15 installed on our saltwater pool and I am very glad she did it. Although it is nearing the end of it's life, it served her well in her "hand's off" approach to pool maintenance.

    I have never felt slimy after spending the day in the pool and was pleasantly surprised not to have that chlorine smell lingering after getting out of the pool either. I have found the advice given to others invaluable as I have been learning to properly care for our pool without relying on the pool store! Until this year, I have never had to add anything to the pool water after the initial opening other than CYA, NaCl, and (a lot of) MA.

    Probably the best advice I could give you is to read the FC/CYA relationship and see why the other members on this forum do not recommend pucks. While they may be useful in the initial start up period, as chem geek has explained above, you will quickly accumulate too much CYA (even with a partial drain over the winter) and it will be harder to maintain the appropriate level of FC.

    As a side not, I wish we had a heat sink... Maintaining an 86 degree pool temperature (the wife won't go in it any colder) is killing me! My NG utility bill actually doubles in the summer compared to the winter months .
    22k gal, IG plaster pool, 1/2 hp Sta-Rite Max-E-Pro pump (P6E6C-204L), Sand Dollar Cristal-Flo 300# sand filter (CFII24), RayPak NG heater (P-R266A-MN-C), AquaRite T-15 SWG, Intermatic Hydro-King (T104P201), Aquabot Xtreme, Taylor K-2006

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