Curious pH test question (Science?)

kmorxi

Member
Mar 25, 2024
13
Austin Texas
Hey guys, I've been correcting my TA since my water here is around 220ppm, so I've been keeping my pH at 7 and checking 3 or 4 times a day and just adding a bit of muriatic acid to correct it down to 7-7.1 and aerating nonstop. My TA has slowly been drifting down and is at 140 now. I'm hoping once my TA is in a good range, my pH will stop going back up. Every day it seems to raise back up to about 7.4 if I add no acid. My water is crystal clear compared to when I started this treatment.

I have 2 unimportant questions that simply make me curious.

1. Will my pH stop drifting back up every day when my TA is 80ish? Or will it all just keep constantly go up and i'll need to add small amount of acid nonstop perpetually?

2. The actual point of this post. Since I'm testing so often, I don't want to waste much of the fluid. I have the k-2006 kit and I fill the large tube to 44ml, add 5 drops of R-0004 (pH Indicator Solution - Phenol Red) and compare in the tube to the 7-8 reference color samples - this is how you're supposed to do the pH test with this kit. I know my pH will always be 7-7.4 since I'm doing it multiple times a day. Today, I did the 44ml of water and 5 drops and my pH was 7 on the dot. So I decided to instead fill the tube to 9ml and add 1 drop, expecting it should give the same result, but it didn't. The color was waaaaay darker., probably a shade closer to what I'd assume an 8.5 would be.

I assumed the 44ml thing is just so you have enough water vertically in the tube to reference left to right the colors on the gauge, and if you simply cut the water to 1/5th and cut the R-0004 to 1/5th, it should give the same result but it'd just be hard to compare since the water doesn't go all the way to the top. Anyone who knows how this stuff actually works know why this isn't the case?
 
1. Will my pH stop drifting back up every day when my TA is 80ish? Or will it all just keep constantly go up and i'll need to add small amount of acid nonstop perpetually?

It'll rise perpetually.

If your TA gets down to 60, pH will rise much more slowly. If you add some of your 220 TA tap water, or if you have a new plaster pool, or if you run aerating water features, it'll rise more quickly.

2. I know my pH will always be 7-7.4 since I'm doing it multiple times a day.

You REALLY don't need to. See how long it takes for the pool pH to rise from 7 to 8, and measure that often / add acid that often. TA will come down.

I assumed the 44ml thing is just so you have enough water vertically in the tube to reference left to right the colors on the gauge, and if you simply cut the water to 1/5th and cut the R-0004 to 1/5th, it should give the same result but it'd just be hard to compare since the water doesn't go all the way to the top. Anyone who knows how this stuff actually works know why this isn't the case?

Each drop turns the same color when it's added to the water; more drops produces a more saturated color, not a different hue. So it's fine to use fewer drops if you want, but use the full amount of water -- the color will be more faint, but the hue will be correct.

Also, R-0004 is really cheap and you can buy it at any pool store if you don't want to wait for it to be shipped from TFTestkits or wherever.
 
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It'll rise perpetually.

If your TA gets down to 60, pH will rise much more slowly. If you add some of your 220 TA tap water, or if you have a new plaster pool, or if you run aerating water features, it'll rise more quickly.



You REALLY don't need to. See how long it takes for the pool pH to rise from 7 to 8, and measure that often / add acid that often. TA will come down.



Each drop turns the same color when it's added to the water; more drops produces a more saturated color, not a different hue. So it's fine to use fewer drops if you want, but use the full amount of water -- the color will be more faint, but the hue will be correct.

Also, R-0004 is really cheap and you can buy it at any pool store if you don't want to wait for it to be shipped from TFTestkits or wherever.

Thanks! Yeah I just didn't want to deal with grabbing more if I'm testing so often! I'll keep doing it at this rate for a few more days while I'm seeing the progress just as an experiment but I'll take your advice and do that other method! And as for the hue thing, that makes sense!!
 
Today, I did the 44ml of water and 5 drops and my pH was 7 on the dot. So I decided to instead fill the tube to 9ml and add 1 drop, expecting it should give the same result, but it didn't. The color was waaaaay darker., probably a shade closer to what I'd assume an 8.5 would be.

Are you saying that the same water sample turned pH-7-yellow when adding 5 drops of indicator to 44ml of water, but turned ph-above-8ish-red when adding 1 drop of indicator to 9ml of water? That doesn't really make sense, those test situations should be equivalent.

The only explanation that I have is that the dark red (purple?) means that chlorine has turned the indicator into chlorphenol red, another indicator that makes the yellow to red transition at lower pH than phenol red. But why does this only happen to the 9ml sample with 1 indicator drop?

Is your FC around 10ppm? The Taylor phenol is able to suppress the chlorine interference (which turns phenol red into chlorphenol red) up to around FC 10. Maybe you have slightly more than 9ml, which is relative to one drop more of a mismatch than having slightly more than 44ml relative to 5 drops. This has an effect on the colour intensity to start with, and maybe having a higher excess of chlorinated water relative to the indicator amount accelerates the chlorine interference effects?

Is that repeatable? Could you post some photos? I am curious now...
 
Are you saying that the same water sample turned pH-7-yellow when adding 5 drops of indicator to 44ml of water, but turned ph-above-8ish-red when adding 1 drop of indicator to 9ml of water? That doesn't really make sense, those test situations should be equivalent.

The only explanation that I have is that the dark red (purple?) means that chlorine has turned the indicator into chlorphenol red, another indicator that makes the yellow to red transition at lower pH than phenol red. But why does this only happen to the 9ml sample with 1 indicator drop?

Is your FC around 10ppm? The Taylor phenol is able to suppress the chlorine interference (which turns phenol red into chlorphenol red) up to around FC 10. Maybe you have slightly more than 9ml, which is relative to one drop more of a mismatch than having slightly more than 44ml relative to 5 drops. This has an effect on the colour intensity to start with, and maybe having a higher excess of chlorinated water relative to the indicator amount accelerates the chlorine interference effects?

Is that repeatable? Could you post some photos? I am curious now...
I'll do some experimentation right now! So FC is 6 and CC is 0. I haven't put any chemicals in the pool since last night and it's noon now.

First pic shows water at the 44ml mark, then second pic I added 5 drops. It looks a little different in the pic but in person it's clearly a 7.4

Third pic is my water level at 9ml and fourth is 1 drop which clearly shows a color more similar to a 7.8 or 8.

The water levels look a little funny in the pic but it was just kinda hard to hold the tube straight and have the phone also be upright, the amounts are correct though! (Of course 9ml is eyeballed and it's possible that 1 drop compared to an eyeballed 9ml is enough room for error to change the hue since we're working with such little water, but I expected the outcome to be a darker color so I eyeballed the 9 on the higher side rather than the lower side and still got a similar result as yesterday)

A previous reply said that the dye just changes the hue and so even with 44ml in 1 or 2 drops of the r-0004, the hue will be accurate but it will be dull and hard to compare. I tested this too but it's really nearly impossible to compare next to the glass samples with the difference in vibrancy
 

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Very interesting. Just did a quick test myself with tap water (raining, didn't want to go outside for that...).

Don't really see a difference in hue:

Screenshot_20240416-180408.png

Screenshot_20240416-180322.png


No idea what's going on there...
 
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How vigorously did you shake the 9ml sample to mix the indicator drop in? Maybe more aeration going on with the small sample driving pH up?

Try it opposite to Bond's Vodka Martinis and go gently "stirred, not shaken".
 
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Many pool service guys just put a drop of phenol read in the pool and determine pH from that. It’s honestly not that inaccurate, but I don’t want to add it to my water.

I’ve found the exact drop count isn’t important, and I can usually accurately read pH when the first drop hits the sample tube. It’s the color hue you are looking for, not the shade. I think of it as “redness” or “yellowness” since my pH is never very low
 
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