Major Inground remodel

robrinker · Posted: October 28th, 2011, 10:04 am

After living with our 42 year old pool for the last 5 years, my wife and I are ready to remodel. As mentioned in my signature, our pool is an approximately 30000 GAL In-Ground 26'x50' Kidney Shaped Pool. The deck is brush concrete and has sunk and raised in various places. The plaster has been painted over several times. The paint comes off constantly during the swim season and brushing the pool creates milky water. The coping is (I believe) exposed aggregate, has loose stones, and has pulled more than an inch away from the deck in many places. In short, the remodel is over due.

We are looking to have the decking torn out and replaced with stamped concrete, to have the pool re-plastered, the coping replaced, and add a set of steps to the shallow end. We currently have only ladders and that has precluded our parents from enjoying the pool with us.

We have gotten two quotes so far from remodelers that were recommended by a local pool maintenance company. The quotes were fairly detailed, but one was for $25k and the other $40k. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about building and remodeling to know if I'm comparing apples to apples. I'd like to get a least one more quote (we'd like to get this done in the spring), but it's getting late in the year here and I've got my winter cover on already.

What kinds of questions should I be asking these remodelers, and what can I do to ensure they are both quoting the same things?

Any other gotchas that I should look out for?

Thanks,

Ron

fyton2v · **Joined:** June 3rd, 2007, 9:08 pm **Posts:** 129

It's safe to say that those two bids aren't apples to apples. There can be huge differences in price for various materials (flagstone vs. cement for instance) and the labor to install those materials. Also, they might both be proposing a different process to replace your pool plaster. Why don't you anonymize the bids and post them up on this forum?

Lana537 · Posted: October 28th, 2011, 8:56 pm

Hello~

Your pool is roughly the same age as mine.

I agree with the above poster--it would be grand if you could rewrite those bid line items and post them here so we can see the detail, or lack thereof, of what these builders are offering.

One thing you can do to help prevent disappointment or surprises is to make your own drawing of your pool (don't be afraid if your are not a professional architect/draftsman). Decide what you'd like your stairs and deep end bench to look like. We drew our own steps and shallow end bench design, putting six steps out of a roughly 3 1/2 foot deep shallow end. It is so easy to get into and out of the pool. Had we not done this, the builder would have defaulted to his small, standard three steep steps in the corner. Decide and draw what width of decking you want all around, leaving width to accommodate lounge chairs and walking space around them, etc.

You may have only one deep end drain now. Your builder will need to redo this so there are 2 that are VGB compliant. It is code to have a deep end step out of some sort.

If your decking is being replaced, is your plumbing being redone or simply pressure tested and used as is. Are you getting new pool pad and equipment? Will there be a new pool cover included?

Will the electric need to come up to code (pool-equip bonding, gfcis, etc.) Is the electrical work included in the bid or your responsibility? What about permits?

And then, as the above poster mentioned, what about that plaster? What kind of surface do you want? Which waterline tile? Will the old plaster be hammer-chiseled completely out, down to the concrete? Will there be a bond coat? Exactly how is what going to be done.

Is start up and "pool school" included? What are the warrantees on everything?

Regroup and turn your two bids into a uniform and detailed list of requirements, with your modifications, and ask the first two builders to re-bid. Use the new list to solicit a third or fourth bid.

Ask to see examples of the builders work--site visits to other pools they have done. It will help you choose plaster surface, color, waterline tile, coping, and other details.

Lastly, leave money in the bank to cover some of the surprises and fix the landscaping that is going to get trashed by having all of this action in your back yard.

Good luck!

Lana

robrinker · Posted: October 31st, 2011, 11:54 am

Thanks for the responses. You have given me a ton to think about!
____________________________________________________________
Quote #1:
Scope of Work:

Removal of Coping - $1,550

Replace coping with your choice of bullnosed coping material, approximately 130' of material, 2'x12"x2.5". This price is based on the pool beam being solid, and not "rotten" underneath old coping in the frost line. If there are bad spots in the pool beam, they will be fixed at a time and materials basis.
Sandstone Coping - $8,840
Bluestone Coping - $9,440
Stamped Concrete Coping - $7,200

Pressure test all pool lines to ensure there is no leaks while deck is off - $350
If skimmers need to be replaced, this will be done on a time and materials basis.

Remove and replace all 6"x6" waterline tile (Tile allowance is $7.00/sq/ft.) - $2,880

Form and pour a small set of concrete steps in shallow end of pool - $1,750

Sandblast entire pool - $2,560

Plaster entire pool and steps with Diamond Brite standard color plaster. Before plastering the entire pool shell will need to be sandblasted and we will prepare the pool with SGM bondcoat. - $11,100

Removal of Deck (Approximately 1100 sq. ft) - $4,400

Pour new stamped concrete decking - $14.50/sq. ft.

Caulking between coping and decking - $480

Removal and replacement of pool lighting can be done on a time and materials basis.

TERMS:

1/4 on Acceptance
1/4 on Deck/Coping Removal
1/4 on Sandblasting
14/ on Completion

____________________________________________________________
Quote #2:

SCOPE OF WORK

OPTION ONE - INTERIOR FINISH

- Blast pool, removing existing paint finish.
- Apply new Sunstone exposed aggregate pool plaster finish

TOTAL COST: $14,000

OPTION TWO - NEW WALKWAY/COPING

- Remove existing coping and existing walkway
- Set up and pour new stamped concrete walkway

TOTAL COST: $11,450
____________________________________________________________

I didn't really notice it until retyping it here, but exposed aggregate doesn't sound very appealing for a plaster finish. Wouldn't that be really hard to vacuum and brush?

We do only have one main drain in the deep end. It is bowl shaped so I'm not sure how it would be possible to add another. We were hoping to not have to redo the plumbing. We currently have black poly rather than PVC and from what I've read and experienced, it is much more resilient than PVC when it comes to freezing.

There is a small 1 foot wide ledge about 3 1/2 feet below the coping all around the deep end. Does this constitute a deep end step out? There is also a ladder on the deep end that you can exit the pool from.

Electric was not mentioned in either bid (other than being time and materials in the one). Our deep end light doesn't work and I want to get that fixed while the decking is torn up.

We aren't planning on getting a new pad and equipment. Our current pad and equipment is in a small 'pool house' and redoing that would probably put us way out of our budget. We have a safety cover that we purchased two years ago that we plan to keep using. We have not discussed how to get the anchors reinstalled for that.

robrinker · Posted: November 8th, 2011, 2:37 pm

Any thoughts on the quotes I posted?

PoolGuyNJ · Posted: November 8th, 2011, 4:09 pm

Neither is an acceptable quote.

Quote 1:
The decking removal and new pour are, IMHO, higher than they should be. Thickness, reinforcements, and PSI strength should be stated.
The pressure test is about 150% more than it should be.
You didn't give a cost per man/hour for any T/M work such as replacing skimmers or bond beam repairs.
If the plaster under the paint is sound and is only a single layer thick, sand blasting is appropriate but if it is blistered or a second layer already, a chip out is appropriate.
No other choices for finishes?
Completion should be defined.
No warranty?
References?

Quote 2:
Seems pretty thinly worded. Was this intentional on your part to reduce typing?
Where's the steps?
Exposed aggregate finishes are not like an exposed aggregate finish with concrete. They also last a lot longer. I'm not a big Sun Stone fan though. Wet Edge and Pebbletec brands are better and generally,the installers that use them.

Again, similar concerns from quote 1 follow to #2 WRT warranty, defining completion, and references. You are about to drop more than a few dollars. Visit pools done by those in consideration. Get some more quotes.

Scott

There is no hurry. Since you are in Ohio, nothing should be done before Spring.

robrinker · Posted: February 19th, 2012, 2:35 pm

Thanks to everyone who responded. Scott, the above quotes I posted were exactly as we received them. I copied them word for word. The sparseness of the wording concerned me as well.

In either case, my wife and I took your and Lana's suggestions and put together a request for proposal. I'd like to get some final opinions of it before we send it out. You can view it in google docs at the following link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fda ... vTcnw/edit

One final question I have:

The area we live in has a very high water table. Our well is only about 55 feet deep. Should we be concerned with the pool 'floating' when they empty it to re-plaster and is there anything that should or can be done to minimize this risk?

Thanks again and we look forward to posting pics of the process this spring.

CraigMW · Posted: February 20th, 2012, 11:58 am

Quote #1 seems VERY expensive, especially for the removal and replacement of the decking. I would definitely keep shopping around. You should probably make a list of things you think need to be addressed, including the new steps needed, the VGB drains, etc. In addition, I didn't see anything regarding plumbing or equipment upgrades. Is the current plumbing in good shape? Is it PVC or copper? If the latter, this would probably be a good time to redo that (esp. if it is a smaller diameter than 2"). What about the equipotential bonding grid? Make sure any new decking added is electrically connected to the rebar in the pool shell, and that any light niches are also tied into the bonding grid, and that an 8 ga bonding wire is supplied at the equipment pad to bond the pump motor(s) and heater/heat pump. They describe replacing lights in bid #1... what shape are the current lights? New LED lights would make a great replacement, but the color changing versions don't have the output of existing halogens. So you might consider having an extra niche added at the other end of the pool to give better lighting. I realize that any fix will require some demo and waste removal, but the 1st quote is nearing the price of a new pool. It really seems high to me, but maybe a pool builder from that region can chime in here.

robrinker · Posted: February 20th, 2012, 1:12 pm

The reading I've done on VGB states that dual drains are only a requirement for public pools. We can put a VGB compliant drain cover over our existing single drain and be compliant. We are planning on keeping our current plumbing, just having it pressure tested while the deck is off so any issue could be fixed if found. Our current plumbing is 1 1/2" black poly.

Bonding was something that I just assumed would be covered by local code and wouldn't need to be spelled out in an RFP. Do you think we should add something to the request regarding bonding?

The current light in the pool looks like an old round car headlight. It has not worked since we've owned the pool. Whoever originally installed the light didn't leave enough extra cabling for the light to be taken out of the water and set on the deck to be replaced. I did pull the light out one winter and tested it, but there was no power going to it, so during a renovation seemed like the perfect time to repair it.

robrinker · Posted: March 28th, 2012, 7:27 am

Is two weeks a reasonable amount of time to give a contractor to submit a bid?

robrinker · Posted: April 2nd, 2012, 12:41 pm

Here is the re-quote of Quote #2 above, using the RFP we provided the contractor

Quote:

SCOPE OF WORK
1. Drain pool, remove existing hydrostatic relief valves.
2. Water blast interior of pool, removing existing paint finish.
3. Remove existing concrete walkway.
4. Remove existing pool coping and existing pool water line tile.
5. Remove existing skimmers and existing pool returns.
6. Remove existing pool light fixture.
7. Install new pool skimmers. Attach to existing underground skimmer piping. NOTE: Air test existing skimmer line.
8. lnstall new pool return fittings. Attach to existing underground return piping. NOTE: Air test existing return line.
9. Install one (1) NEW 500 WATT, 120 voLT UNDERWATER pool- LIGHT. Extend new conduit for pool light and make final connection.
10. Air test all existing underground pool piping.
11. Install new 6" x 6" frost proof water line tile.
12. Install new 4" thick by 12" wide poured in place concrete coping.
13. Form and pour new concrete walkway. Same dimensions as existine. New walkway to be 4" thick and will be reinforced with #10 wire mesh.
14. Form and pour new concrete steps in shallow end. Install one (1) removable handrail.
15. Install new exposed aggregate pool plaster finish on interior of pool.
16. coordinate filling pool. NorE: water supplied by owner.

NOTES

Proposal assumes no work to existing underground pool piping.
Additional labor will be supplied at $75.00/hour.
Work to begin in June 2012.

PLEASE READ THIS SECTION
The pricing of this project is predicated on the following:

GENERAL CONDITIONS

AGREEMENT
1. The written agreement is in fact, the contract. Drawings may not reflect changes or field adjustments.
2. Drawings shall be submitted to owner for approval and shall become part of the contract documents.

PAYMENT
3. Payment for work completed is due within 30 days of invoice date. POOL CONTRACTOR may stop work without payment. In the event of failure to pay account balance, interest will be assessed at the rate of 2% per month or 24% annually and added to the account balance.

If the project is not complete within one (l) year of the signed contract due to owner's delay, contrator has the right to add four percent (4%) to the remaining balance due for material and equipment increases.

WATER
4. Filling of the pool initially and subsequently, as well as water quality are NOT the responsibility of the Pool Contractor. Water cost is not included in this price.

GUARANTEE

5. CONTRACToR agrees to perform the work in a workmanlike manner, and guarantees the swimming pool and equipment to be free from defects for a period of one (1) year from date of mechanical start up, except diving boards, underwater light bulbs, pump seals, and on-grade concrete flatwork (walkways). No guarantee work will be done until final payment is made.

Liability under this warranty is conditioned upon the pool system having been operated and maintained in accordance with recommendations and requirements of the Pool Contractor as provided in the "Operating Manual" accompanying each pool.

Liability under warranty is limited to the repair, in place, of any defect covered by the warranty, provided written notice of such defect is delivered to the Pool Contractor within the warranty period within fifteen (15) days after the defect is discovered and prompt opportunity is afforded Pool Contractor to make the repair.

EXTRAS

6. Extras must be submitted on a signed change order before we proceed with the work.

INSTRUCTION AND OPERATING

7. Two (2) hours of operating instructions are included as part of this agreement. Two (2) bound sets of Operating Instructions will be supplied. The Pool Contractor will not be responsible for abuse, neglect, or improper operation of the pool or the equipment. Further training will require a service change.

8. Pool contractor shall provide owner with adequate liability, worker's Compensation, and property insurance coverage.

GRADE - LOCATION - ACCESS NOTATIONS - EXCAVATION

OWNER/AGENT shall assume responsibility of the location and grade of the pool on the premises. OWNER/AGENT is also responsible for access route including grass, driveways, and curbs, and any hidden utilities or accessories, easements, and right-of-ways not specifically noted. Excavation spoils to be hauled on site. Rock, water, sand, or unusual soil conditions underground that requires special equipment to complete the excavation, or special construction to build the pool, must be charged as an extra. Replacing of landscape and fine grading is not included in this proposal, unless specifically detailed in specifications.

SPECIAL NOTATIONS

1. This quotation is good for thirty (30) days from date of submittal.
2. Settlement of Payment must be made before guarantee is valid.
3. Drawings and pool permits BY POOL CONTRACTOR.

SCHEDULING

Upon receipt of signed contract and deposit (if necessary), this project will be put into our Production schedule.

PAYMENT SCHEDULE

20% Deposit with Signed Contract (non-refundable)
20% Demolition Complete
20% New Walkway in Place
20% New Fittings/Fixtures in Place
20% New Interior Finish in Place

All outstanding balances must be paid in full before the next phase is scheduled.

Contractor retains title to all products used in the construction of the project until all invoices are paid in full.

TOTAL COST: $58.150.00

I was bit frustrated that despite our RFP asking for "Items to list: specify as to price and full scope of work", this quote was not itemized AND we specifically asked for Diamond Brite plaster and they quoted exposed aggregate again.

robrinker · Posted: April 2nd, 2012, 1:03 pm

Quote #3. This is a new company, not associated with either of the two mentioned above.

Quote:

Installation of built in 6 ft wide radius concrete stairs in shallow end on porch side of pool._______________________$3,545.00
- Steps will have a rise of 8 inches and a run of 11 inches with no slip surface.

One custom (1) Stainless steel handrail will be mounted in center of stairs from top to bottom of new stairs.________$733.00
- Removable for winter.

Removal of current concrete decking, coping and tiles._____________________________________________________$3,450.00
This includes walkway to the patio deck and stone walk from patio to fence. This includes dive stand.

Pressure Test pool lines. (If any leaks are found, we will requote you for the repairs.)____________________________$375.00

Labor charges to remove existing pool light in deep end and replace light and conduit from pool to pump house. ______$1,575.00
New pool light will be a Pentair Fiberstars color changing light.

Labor charges to replace two (2) existing skimmers with new Hayward 1086 skimmer boxes________________________$2,640.00
- This does not include new lines from pool to pumproom.

Labor charges to sand blast pool by sub contractor_________________________________________________________$3,080.00

Installation of 130 lf. of solid 6" x 6" pool tile with white latex grout. Tile to be chosen by HomeOwner._______________$3,790.00
*Tile price based on 6.00 sq. ft.- Fancier tiles cost more and price will be adjusted if needed upon approval.

Installation of stamped pool coping and pool deck and walkways to patio and fence. ______________________________$20,900.00
- Stamped Concrete will be 4" thick, 4000 psi concrete with micro fiber. 1/2" rebar reinforcement at 2 ft. on center each way. Stone base as needed to regrade after demolition.
- Concrete will be pumped in from driveway.
Pattern- Seamless slate
Color- Color will be an integral color. As close to Terra Cotta as possible or a light earth tone color. Earth tone is cooler in the sun.
Release- Lighter or darker shade of color then concrete color for color tone. (Owners choice)
Sealer- Kuhlmans Pro Gloss
Stegmeirer forms with capstone look

Resurfacing of pool with cool Blue Diamond Brite_____________________________________________________________$7,500.00
- 5 yr warranty on workmanship
- Chisel under and around main drains, returns, lights, skimmers
- Acid etch pool surface and neutralize
- Apply layer of Bond Kote onto pool surface.
- Install new 2" x 2" Cobalt blue spotter tiles on stair treads.
- Apply 1/2" to 5/8" layer of Diamond Brite "Cool Blue to pool surface.
- Home Owner to refill pool upon completion.
- Contractor will help properly balance the pool water upon refill

OPTIONS

Extreme pool slide installed-It is Safe and Awesome__________________________________________________________$3,875.00
Winter Safety Cover____________________________________________________________________________________$2,990.00

No landscaping of grass or plants is included in this quote
Labor rate for service is $ 95.00 per hour

TERMS: 1/3 start, 1/3 midway,1/3 comp

CONDITIONS:
â€¢All pricing valid for (30) days with signed original contract and maybe voided by Contractor if not executed by owner in one month.
â€¢All changes must be submitted on a signed change order before we proceed with the work.
â€¢Changes will be dealt with on a time & material basis.
â€¢Payments must be made within set terms or all work will cease.
â€¢Chemicals are an additional cost, unless provided by customer.
â€¢Vacuumming of pool is billed additional and not included at open/close
â€¢We are not responsible for fill line being left on at any time. Fuel Surchages/Travel Time may apply
**Special Orders are non-returnable and require half down. Fuel surcharges may apply with economic conditons
*No warranty on pool painting
TO EXECUTE THIS AGREEMENT, PLEASE SIGN,DATE AND RETURN ONE COPY TO OUR OFFICE.
If deposit is required, please include that amount with the contract.

Total for this quote (without the slide and winter cover) is $47,588.00.

I really like this company. They spent a lot of time talking to us about the pool and making sure they understood what we wanted and what we were trying to accomplish.

Unfortunately, these prices are getting scary. The wife mentioned filling the pool in today. :shock:

robrinker · Posted: April 2nd, 2012, 1:05 pm

One last quick question:

How much can I realistically expect to negotiate down these prices? (both the complete quote and the labor rate?)

robrinker · Posted: April 9th, 2012, 1:52 pm

Anyone?

ROB N · Posted: April 9th, 2012, 2:04 pm

Sorry to say this, They all seem to be extermely high IMHO...

robrinker · Posted: April 9th, 2012, 2:53 pm

I thought so too, but with 3 different companies coming in with basically the same price, it seems to be legit.

We are getting a fair amount of stamped concrete decking and sidewalks poured, which seems to be about half of the price of the renovation.

Any idea what kind of margin pool builders usually make on a project of this size? I'd love to know how much room I have to negotiate on the price.

jeffjr464 · Posted: May 7th, 2012, 12:53 am

i have a 20x40 pool, same as yours, aggregate, my pool was built in 1956, you quotes are terrifying me!!! i spent 6 hours today powerwashing it, it needs work, now im scared, can i do the concrete work myself?

PoolGuyNJ · Posted: May 7th, 2012, 4:41 am

The brass lines are likely copper.

When you say it needs work, we have no idea what you mean by that. If you would be so kind as to be more specific, we might be able to offer some advice.

Scott

jeffjr464 · Posted: May 7th, 2012, 5:44 am

I'll get pics today, it's not that bad really, a power wash, acid wash some small patching then paint and I'm ready for summer, no it's all brass, valves ,fittings the works, new pump last year with a Hayward de filter, all in my furnace room, natural gas heated

Brentr · Posted: May 7th, 2012, 7:33 am

robrinker wrote:

I thought so too, but with 3 different companies coming in with basically the same price, it seems to be legit.

We are getting a fair amount of stamped concrete decking and sidewalks poured, which seems to be about half of the price of the renovation.

Any idea what kind of margin pool builders usually make on a project of this size? I'd love to know how much room I have to negotiate on the price.

I think IF I were you I would continue to get more quotes. If I had to pay that kind of money we would not build a pool, then again we live in Florida where pool builders are begging for your business. I see in the newspapers, pool builders advertising basic pools with minimal decks around pool 12 x 20 for $16,900.
Hope this helps :cheers:

Major Inground remodel

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