Geometric
Perimeter=141
Area=725
Depth 3.6-6'
Size=19'x23'x38'
Spa 10x10 raised 18" with flowover

Steel consists of four #3 steel re-bar around perimeter.
walls and floor contain#3 steel re-bar set at 8" on center.
Additional steel reinforcement at skimmers and lights. Deck dowels at all points of contact where decking meetes pool shell.

Plumbing:
schedual 40 PVC pipe with 2" suction and 2" return lines for proper circulation.
anti-vortex main drains.
Dual-port, variable flow skimmers with self adjusting weir plate. for pool returns with adjustable eyeball fittings.

Gunite 100% volumetric. 4500PSI 6 sack mix with 12" thick beam. 6" thick walls and floors and 8" thick coves.

Coping is oklahoma flag stone? not sure about that one.

Decking 1747 sq ft. sundeck with 4' concrete base steel re-bar through out.

Equipment:
Filter=Pentair clean and clear 420
Filter pump= intelliflo variable speed pump.
Heater Pentair Master temp 400,000 Btu.
Spa blower= silencerx2
Spa jet= 6 on main pump 6 on seperate pump and blower total 12 jets.
Pool cleaner= Pentair ledgend
Sanitizer= intellichlor also has Pentair rainbow 320 aoutomatic chlorine/bromine feeder.
Controls= Pentair EZ touch
Lighting= 3 Pentair LED lights 2 pool 1 spa

Pool bottom= Wet edge standard.

Please let me know what you think. Is the fitler big enough? what about Sundeck. we ave very little trees and very hot sun!

I guess I can't do the bubblers on the swim ledge because I want it to be 18' deep and my pool builder says that is to deep.

Only if plumbed properly. Get a schematic of EXACTLY how they plan to plumb the pool and spa and post it here for review. Plumbing problems are best solved before any pipes are laid. Just read through all of the posts on plumbing issues and you will quickly understand that most PBs really don't understand hydraulics very well.


But here are a few suggestions:

For the pool, at a minimum have separate lines for each skimmer and main drain pair. This way you have the capability to isolate any line if needed. But do not allow the PB to use only a single 2" suction line from the pool to the pad. That would be total inadequate. If the pad is more than 40' from the pool, I would increase the pipe size to 2.5". Even less than 40', 2.5" wouldn't be a bad ideal although not total necessary.


You might want to read this post before making any final plans. It is a good example of what can go wrong if you have a bad design.

But in general I would keep all spa jets off of the main circulation. Have two jet loops and a separate circulation loop with separate returns. The reason I think you are better off with three pumps is that you really don't want high flow rates going through your filter and heater. Plus they along with the rest of the pad equipment will increase the head loss and capability of the pump. You really don't want a beautiful spa with wimpy jets.

Don't let them use anything less than 2.5" pipe for spa but 3" would be better depending on the run length.

Also, the spa plumbing design is dependent on the type of jet that is used. So have you decided on the jets and if so, what is their flow rate requirement?

Hey mark thanks I'm going to have to talk to them about these things on Monday. He had great reviews and has Benny doing this for over 20 years. I asked about the 2.5" pipe and he said it was pointless because all the hook up's are 2". What do you think about that?

That just shows that he doesn't understand! Increasing the size of the pipes absolutely makes a difference, regardless of the fittings. Mark has given you great advice.

I would upgrade the rebar to #4 and the wall and floor thickness to 8 inches.
The Clean and Clear (Plus) 420 is a good choice.
Pentair rainbow 320 automatic chlorine/bromine feeder should be the Off-line model vs. the In-Line model.
Each light should be on its own separate switch to allow for independent operation.
You might want to consider the IntelliTouch vs. the EasyTouch automation. Intellitouch will be more capable.
You might want to consider adding some water features, such as lighted laminars or waterfalls.
I would want two separate, independent return lines going to the pool.

http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/products/
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/pro ... ems-79.htm
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/pro ... ts-221.htm
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/pro ... rs-215.htm

James thanks for your input. I'm going to meet with them on Monday and ask them about all the points ya'll (texas thing:) bring up they truly are great points. I'm going to insist on 2.5 inch pipe.
I did add two shear recents and the hot tub flows over as well. Also did fire bowls for my wife she really likes them.

What about the salt system. The builder/owner likes them the sales guy doesn't. I will seal the stone but that salt decision is what is really keeping me up at night

Salt can lead to problems with flagstone. Some people have no problem with it.

Is this for the pool or spa? The spa definitely needs at least 2.5" but you could get away with 2" on the pool but again, with separate suction lines.

Either way it isn't pointless to up size the plumbing even if you have to reduce it to mate to the equipment. A reducer has a little head loss but it is more than made up for by the other piping.

But just because someone has been building pools doesn't mean they understand how to make an efficient pool. Energy efficiency has only recently become important to some people. He may end up building you a pool that works ok but will be energy inefficient.

As for the spa, that really concerns me that he was not planning to use larger pipe. Most PBs understand the necessity for larger pipe on the spa.

BTW, how far is it from the pool/spa to the equipment pad?

Do you also know the type of spa jets you will be using?

I forgot to mention that another way to force the issue with your PB is to tell him you want the pool to be compliant with APSP-15 requirements. This requires that flow rate velocities in suction pipe does not exceed 6 ft/sec in the suction line and 8 ft/tsec in the return lines. Given that spa jets require a lot of flow rate 15 GPM/jet or more, it will be really hard to meet those requires with anything other than very large pipe.

Hey mark thanks again for sharing you knowledge. I just printed out that standard and will give it to him. He was planing on using 2.5 to the spa I miss spoke. It's about 60 feet to the equipment pad. As far as the jets are concerned I was just thinking about that. What do you recommend? I was hoping there was something where I could just change the tip easily to get more or less psi.


As far as coping we like the tumbled natural travertine. According to the sales people it will hold up well against the salt. Do you salt people agree. I am planning on sealing it though I have to figure out which sealer is best. I have a degree in aerodynamics and have been flying for over 20 years and I swear this is more technical than flying the old Boeing!!! thanks for all your help Steve

The choice in spa jets is fairly large and really depends on what you are looking for. But keep in mind that different types of jets require different flow rates so you want to make sure that the plumbing design and chosen pump can provide the required flow rate. The PB probably has already chosen the jets based upon his design but it is always a good idea to make sure that the design can support the jet he has chosen and that you will be happy with the jet.

But given the pipe size of 2.5" and using the Intelliflo through the pad equipment, supporting 6 jets that require more than 15 GPM/jet might be a problem. These are usually 3/8" orifice jets or smaller. If you want higher flow rate jets, you will need to add a pump and reduce the number of jets per pump.

Here is a catalog of Waterway Jets to get an idea of what is available.

The IntelliFlo pump is an excellent choice. That combined with energy efficient elements, such as properly sized pipes, will help keep energy uses low while allowing you to have great water quality. If you want to add solar or make other changes, the IntelliFlo VSP, will allow a great deal of adjustment to achieve maximum benefit at low cost.

You might want to consider adding solar in addition to the gas heater. Solar can be very effective in areas that get a lot of sun. Chem Geek uses solar and gas and has had good results.

Natural stone composed primarily of calcium carbonate is not the best choice to use with salt. Limestone, travertine, marble etc. are all composed of calcium carbonate. Sealing does help, but I don't think that calcium carbonate based stones are the best choice for use with salt systems. Sealant can be slippery in some cases depending on the choice and application of the sealer.

You want a stone with very low porosity and permeability. Travertine can have rather high levels of porosity and permeability. If you really want travertine, then you could use a liquid chlorine feeder, such as a peristaltic pump, instead of going with a salt system.

Some sandstone contains calcium carbonate, and some sandstone contains very little calcium carbonate. Tennessee Crab Orchard, and Amherst Ohio sandstone, are particularly good choices as they contain more silica and have low levels of porosity and permeability.

Stones that do not contain calcium carbonate, such as some sandstone, quartzite, granite etc. will generally hold up well. Sandstone has a very large degree of variability in its ability to withstand weathering. Some sandstone will hold up well virtually forever, while some will begin deteriorating almost immediately. The stone supplier should be able to advise you about the weatherability of the sandstone. Ask for a sample to examine it.

Granite would weather well, but I haven't seen it used, so I am not sure of other issues such as cost, heat etc. I think that it would probably get hotter than some other materials, especially the darker shades. You wouldn't want it polished, as that would be too slippery.

Precast concrete coping is another possibility. Precast concrete is somewhat variable in look and durability.

Instead of coping, you could just cantilever the deck.

Brick can be used, and looks good. Darker colors will get very hot.

There are various tiles that can be used.

I would avoid dark colors, such as bluestone, dark granite or slate, as they will get too hot to walk on, especially for children. I recommend using a 1-1/2 to 2-inch thick stone for best results.

I think that soapstone would be an interesting choice for coping. Supposedly, it's resistant to most chemical attack. However, it is quite soft and would get damaged easily unless everyone was very careful. It probably would not be a good choice in most cases. Also, the colors tend to run dark, such as this pool with soapstone coping.

James that is exactly the info I was looking for. My wife and I will be picking out the coping this coming up week. Thanks Steve

You should ask for a report regarding the properties of the stone. For example, this sandstone shows a high level of silica (93 %), which will give good performance.
http://www.clevelandquarries.com/archit ... .php#specs

Tennessee Crab Orchard sandstone is about 93 to 95 % silica and contains almost no calcium oxide. It is sometimes classified as a quartzite due to its high silica content and durability, but I don't think that it technically qualifies as a true quartzite.

Quartzite is an excellent choice for durability and would hold up well.


http://www.caribbeanstone-suppliers.com ... rtzite.htm

Just ordered quartzite coping today. 2500 dollars extra but I think that's cheaper than having to replace the coping later. How do you feel about quartzite tile in the waterline below the coping? We like the look of that.

Got a link to the specific quartzite you're thinking of using? Some types of quartzite may be OK, most definitely will not. Generally a porcelain tile that's made specifically for pools (non-absorbant) is the longest-lasting option.

It's from msi stone I'll try to figure out how to add a link.

For waterline tile, you want a smooth frost proof glazed finish. One of the primary reasons for waterline tile is to make the water line easy to clean. Various substances, particularly oil from body oil, lotions etc. can be difficult to clean if they become embedded in the tile.

http://www.msistone.com/

A note about building materials that have an inherent aesthetic quality:

Whenever ordering building materials where the look is important, it is critical to be as specific as reasonably possible as to what your expectations are regarding the qualities such as color, texture, size, shape, dimensions, thickness (even composition*) etc.

It is not unusual for a supplier to include a disclaimer regarding the variability of natural materials, which can lead to the customer being disappointed when the material arrives.

Some customers feel it necessary to visit the stone yard to personally select the materials. Where that is not possible, having the supplier provide pictures before shipping might be an option. The texture can be shown in pictures to some degree, but samples are usually better so that you can actually feel the differences.

It also helps to get a little bit more material than the job requires to allow the stone mason and the customer to choose specific stones and reject others. Extra stone is nice to keep on hand in case any is needed in the future for replacement etc.

It looks like MSI has suppliers in Dallas and Houston.

I ordered my travertine from travertinemart.com. Very pleased so far. I took the travertine over to the local university geology dept and to a local tile/stone dealer and they both said it was high quality with very little fill. Customer service was great, and they will negotiate on large projects.

Especially telling to me was the stone dealer asked me for the contact information after I told him how much I paid for it. He uses them now for travertine supply. I have no relation to them except as a customer.

James thanks for the info. We think we have every thing picked out so far. The coping we picked was the 12x24 quartzite from MSI stone. I'm a little concerned because they can't show me a stone bio at all. In fact they looked at me like I was crazy when I asked to see the stone composition. But they said it was pure Quartzite it better be because it costs an additional 2700 dollars! Steve