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It is currently May 24th, 2012, 3:03 pm
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JasonLion
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 19th, 2009, 7:17 am |
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Joined: May 7th, 2007, 3:03 pm Posts: 23779 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Yes. CYA can turn into ammonia and then the ammonia can come out of the water and go into the air. This doesn't seem to be very common though. CYA appears to get turned into ammonia most effectively in pools with a solid cover, where there is little opportunity for the ammonia to go into the air.
_________________ 19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot TFP Admin. Creator of The Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School
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chem geek
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 19th, 2009, 9:35 am |
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Joined: March 28th, 2007, 2:40 pm Posts: 5406 Location: San Rafael, CA USA
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Anything is possible. It's finding the appropriate explanation that's hard! A few people have reported CYA drops over the winter and not had huge chlorine demand upon opening. The only thing I can figure is that the ammonia outgassed or was otherwise taken up by something (algae?) that got filtered out.
If there is no measured ammonia or CC but there is a large chlorine demand, then that can mean there are intermediate by-products of the CYA oxidation on its way to ammonia and that makes sense and is probably what happened in my pool as well since it took more chlorine than expected based just on ammonia and CC measurements.
_________________ 16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter 12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"
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Water_man
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 20th, 2009, 12:52 pm |
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Joined: June 6th, 2008, 11:43 pm Posts: 393 Location: Brookline, MA
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Alright, I'll give you more details, as they came available, so it won't look like a theoretical question. Pool was closed last winter with CYA= 60. (Frankly, CYA was measured using the Taylor kit only at the beginning of the season. In theory at least it could be lower than 60 at season's end. It won't happen again...) About two feet of water was drained upon closing, and then, at the end of winter, due to snow fill up, close to another foot was drained. Pretty soon rain water filled up, so all in all it is fair to say that the pool had a 25% dilution. The pool is still covered with the winter mesh cover, but submerssion pumps have been working 12 hours a day at about 3000 gph flow rate. Numbers after a good circulation: FC=CC = 0. pH = 7.3 - 7.4. CYA was measured at two different pool stores. One measured 0 and one measured 8 ppm CYA. Dilution only should have brought the CYA down to 45. Bleach was added to reach 2-3 ppm FC. Winter cover is still on. FC dropped to 0.8 after a few days. CC is still 0. Amonnia = 0.25 (difinitely not 0 and definitely lower than 0.5.) Based on all these numbers and the pool's history, is it reasonable to say that my CYA was eaten up by bacteria? Should I expect a large amount of FC to bring the ammonia down to 0? What is the theorteical amount of FC needed to "burn" the ammonia? Should it be done before or after adding CYA? Thank you.
Last edited by Water_man on May 20th, 2009, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_________________ This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) : 22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump 380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover 8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.
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JasonLion
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 20th, 2009, 1:10 pm |
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Joined: May 7th, 2007, 3:03 pm Posts: 23779 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Your ammonia level isn't all that high. There will be some extra chlorine demand, but it shouldn't be as dramatic as some of the other posters who have had ammonia.
_________________ 19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot TFP Admin. Creator of The Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School
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chem geek
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 20th, 2009, 1:39 pm |
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Joined: March 28th, 2007, 2:40 pm Posts: 5406 Location: San Rafael, CA USA
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I'd just do a bucket test to see how much chlorine it will take before the FC will hold. The ammonia level is pretty low so you are probably OK. In the worst case where there are intermediates that aren't registering as CC (with no chlorine in the water, they wouldn't anyway) or ammonia, then the rule you can use is that it takes up to 2.5x the CYA drop as FC to clear it. If it were a 40 ppm drop, then that would be 100 ppm FC. Let's hope that's not the case in your particular situation. Again, do a bucket test if you are concerned or just start adding some chlorine to the pool and see what happens.
_________________ 16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter 12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"
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bk406
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 22nd, 2011, 3:32 pm |
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 11:28 am Posts: 2419 Location: Central Massachusetts
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It happened again this winter. I opened and had <10 ppm CYA. I ended around 50 ppm last October. No ammonia, no CC, no chlorine demand when I opened. In fact, I had 5 ppm FC when I opened after 6 months being closed (October 20-April 6th). Lots of snow over the winter, so perhaps dilution explains it, but i open to almost zero cya every spring no matter what.
_________________ 14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.
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chem geek
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 22nd, 2011, 3:37 pm |
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Joined: March 28th, 2007, 2:40 pm Posts: 5406 Location: San Rafael, CA USA
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If you had algae in the pool when you opened, then the ammonia could be used by algae as their nitrogen source so you end up removing most of that via filtration rather than with chlorine alone. However, you said there was little chlorine demand when you opened so I presume the water was fairly clear. Other than dilution or some sort of evaporation of the ammonia, we don't have a good explanation for this.
You say you had 5 ppm FC after 6 months being closed. What FC level did you close with? The cold water temp probably kept the chlorine from getting used up, but would also eliminate the possibility of bacterial growth unless there was an isolated pocket without chlorine due to no circulation.
_________________ 16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter 12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"
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bk406
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 22nd, 2011, 4:11 pm |
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 11:28 am Posts: 2419 Location: Central Massachusetts
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I closed at around 25 ppm FC. When I opened, water was crystal clear. No algea that I could see.
_________________ 14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.
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chem geek
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Post subject: Re: It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine, CYA-->Ammonia  Posted: May 23rd, 2011, 2:43 pm |
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Joined: March 28th, 2007, 2:40 pm Posts: 5406 Location: San Rafael, CA USA
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Well, even if the chlorine itself oxidized the CYA, the difference of 20 ppm FC would only be able to oxidize around 9 ppm CYA at best so would not account for the drop. So we've still got a mystery as I doubt that water dilution accounted for more than half or so of the drop.
_________________ 16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter 12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"
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