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Post subject: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 16th, 2012, 10:41 pm
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Joined: June 11th, 2012, 6:46 pm
Posts: 17
In ground 18 x 36 with 6.5 foot deep end , according to online calculation should be 24,000 gallons. Pool builder puts in a 1.5 HP hayward super pump with almost every pool. My pump with hayward cartridge Swim clear 3030 filter will be approx 60 feet from my skimmers and floor drains(which should be separate) in the deep end and only 20-30 feet away from the various returns. Do I measure the total head from the skimmers or returns? If from the Skimmers than it seems that the regular Super pump maybe just making it and possibly the better choice will be the hayward Super II as it is better suited for longer lengths. Please help out with this calculation and giving advice between the regular Super pump and the Super II ( HP ?-) Thanks Much !

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 16th, 2012, 11:05 pm
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 2340
I think that you could use a 3/4 HP single speed or a 1 H.P dual speed SuperPump. The distance really does not make a big difference as long as the pipe is big enough.

http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/literat ... UPER11.pdf

I would want each skimmer plumbed separately 2" PVC to the pump. I would want each skimmer to have its own 2" Jandy NeverLube valve. I would want (2) separate 2" returns. I would want a 1.5" return plumbed for a pressure side cleaner (even if you're not getting a pressure side cleaner now.)

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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 16th, 2012, 11:22 pm
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Joined: May 10th, 2010, 1:12 am
Posts: 2778
Location: SW Louisiana
I think you would be fine on either one, I have a 1.5HP Super Pump on my pool, it is located about 40 feet from the skimmer. Having said that if your looking for an upgrade I would strongly suggest considering a 2 speed pump, as they consume a lot less electricity than the single speeds like the 1.5HP Super Pump. I will likely change out to one next time my pump or motor dies. Not to say that there is anything wrong with the 1.5 HP Super Pump, my pool as had one for the last 20-30 year (well it has been through a couple of them, and each has probably been through a couple of motors.)

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Indoor 20x40 36,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump. Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter with 11 4x12 Techno-Solis panel roof top solar heat with Aquasolar controller, Dolphin Diagnostic Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and soon to be connected UV Ozonator
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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 16th, 2012, 11:26 pm
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 2340
If you are going to use solar, then you don't want a SuperPump. A TriStar (SP3205EE), or a Super II (SP3005X7AZ) would be a better choice.

If your electric rates are high, then you might want a variable speed pump, such as the EcoStar.

http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/literat ... SS11_5.pdf

http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/literat ... IIMX11.pdf

http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/literat ... COSB11.pdf

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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 12:15 am
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Joined: May 10th, 2010, 1:12 am
Posts: 2778
Location: SW Louisiana
Just wondering why you say not to use a Super Pump for solar?

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Indoor 20x40 36,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump. Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter with 11 4x12 Techno-Solis panel roof top solar heat with Aquasolar controller, Dolphin Diagnostic Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and soon to be connected UV Ozonator
I use and endorse the TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 10:25 am
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 2340
Isaac-1 wrote:
Just wondering why you say not to use a Super Pump for solar?
A SuperPump is designed to be a medium head pump, which means that it is not designed for the higher head requirements that usually accompany a solar system.

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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 12:20 pm
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Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Solar really doesn't require a high head pump. Anything over 40 GPM @ 40' of head will probably do fine with solar. My current pump has about the same head curve as the 1 HP Superpump and it works great even with solar on a two story house AND running a vacuum cleaner at the same time.

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Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 1:09 pm
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Joined: May 10th, 2010, 1:12 am
Posts: 2778
Location: SW Louisiana
Also over pressurization is a common cause of solar solar panel failure.

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Indoor 20x40 36,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump. Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter with 11 4x12 Techno-Solis panel roof top solar heat with Aquasolar controller, Dolphin Diagnostic Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and soon to be connected UV Ozonator
I use and endorse the TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 6:58 pm
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Joined: June 11th, 2012, 6:46 pm
Posts: 17
Really a 3/4 to 1 HP. Not from experience but from online calc a 24,000 gallon pool would require 50 GPM . 24,000/8 hrs (turnover) /60min = 5O GPM.
at 60 feet the 1.5 Hayward Superpump just makes pumping 50 GPM and the Hayward super II which is the same price pumps 73 GPM.
FYI....The pool will have 1.5 " piping throughout..with two skimmers, two bottom drains , 2 returns in pool, 2 returns in steps and a return line for pressure cleaner .
Thanks

Hayward Super Pump specs
http://www.inyopools.com/Products/02201156001136.htm

Hayward Super II specs
http://www.inyopools.com/Products/02201157001155.htm

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 7:47 pm
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 2340
Head is determined by the resistance to flow, not by how far the pump is from the pool. A 3/4 H.P pump could be 1,000 feet from the pool and still work just fine as long as the pipe is large enough (about 3" PVC would be sufficient).

Head is composed of static and dynamic. Static is the height difference that the pump has to overcome. In most cases, the static head nets to zero because the water returns to the same height as it came from. Exceptions would be solar, infinity edge, fountains etc.

Dynamic head is determined by the friction of water as it moves through the system.

Also, there is no requirement for residential pool as far as turnover goes. However, the 3/4 H.P SuperPump (SP2605X7) will do 50 gpm at about 32 feet of head. If all you have is a cartridge filter, then your head should be pretty low. What other equipment will you have? (Solar, gas heater, salt chlorinator, heat pump, etc.)

My preference is to run at a lower flow rate for a longer time vs. shorter time at a higher flow rate. Unless you will have a high bather load on a regular basis, then an 8 hour turnover is not necessary.

I highly recommend that the plumbing be 2" instead of 1.5" for all suction and return lines. Each skimmer should be independently run all of the way to the pump and individually valved. They should not be tied in together underground.

Last edited by JamesW on June 17th, 2012, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 17th, 2012, 7:58 pm
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm
Posts: 2340
mas985 wrote:
Solar really doesn't require a high head pump. Anything over 40 GPM @ 40' of head will probably do fine with solar. My current pump has about the same head curve as the 1 HP Superpump and it works great even with solar on a two story house AND running a vacuum cleaner at the same time.
I agree that a high head pump is not required. However, I think that a medium head pump is not the best choice, especially if the roof is second story.

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Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 18th, 2012, 9:18 am
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Joined: June 11th, 2012, 6:46 pm
Posts: 17
Thanks Much James on the explanation of the head calculation.
Other than a Hayward Catridge 3030, I will have heat pump and the max flow on the Aqua comfort is 70GPM. All Suction and returns will be individually run and said not to be joined under ground.
Not doubting the benefit of a 2" pipe but I am just thinking out loud. A 2" pipe has less resistance than a 1.5" but with four suctions still going into the manifold and ultimately enters one pipe into the pump, it's not like the pump has a 4" pipe to allow all that water to be pumped and returned.
When I looked at various pool builders there is a range of construction techniques, plumbing methods, filtration choices and of course \$\$ cost. The Pool builder I chose may not have every single item as optimal but has the majority. Even on bigger pools than my 18x36 they use 1.5" and have success over the decades and wont really change.

You mention " high bather load " . Not sure what this referring too.

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 18th, 2012, 3:37 pm
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
JamesW wrote:
I agree that a high head pump is not required. However, I think that a medium head pump is not the best choice, especially if the roof is second story.

You need to be careful what you classify as medium vs high head. For example, the two pumps that you suggested, TriStar (SP3205EE) and Super II (SP3005X7AZ), have head curves similar to the Superpump SP2607X102S and all have lower head curves than the SP2610X15 which is what I think the PB was suggesting. The Tristar even has close to the same max head as the Superpump so those are very similar except that the TriStar has a higher efficiency, albeit single speed, motor. But other than that there is very little difference between these two pumps.

msera1, I don't have all of the details about your plumbing but just from what you have posted plus filling in some of the unknowns with typical setups, here are the operating points for three of the pumps (SP2610X152S, SP2607X102S & SP3205EE) and two plumbing sizes (1.5" and 2") with solar engaged. Note that you gain about 30% in efficiency when going to a larger pipe size. Also, note that Superpump is less efficient than the Tristar but that does not take into account that the Superpump can run on low speed where as the Tristar cannot. Your overall efficiency will depend on how much run time will be at low speed vs high speed. Also keep in mind that since I don't have all of the details of your setup, your results may vary.

 Summary SP2610X152S - 1.5" SP2607X102S - 1.5" SP3205EE - 1.5" SP2610X152S - 2" SP2607X102S - 2" SP3205EE - 2" Pump Speed (rpm) 3450 3450 3450 3450 3450 3450 Water Flow (gpm) 51.8 48.8 49.7 68.4 64.7 67.4 Suction Head Loss (ft) 3.3 3.0 3.0 2.2 2.0 2.1 Pad Head Loss (ft) 10.8 9.6 10.0 12.5 11.2 12.2 Solar Head Loss (ft) 27.9 25.0 25.8 15.6 14.1 15.2 Return Head Loss (ft) 7.9 7.0 7.3 4.2 3.8 4.1 Jet/Eyeball Head Loss (ft) 0.5 0.5 0.5 1.0 0.9 1.0 Total Head Loss (ft) 50.4 45.0 46.5 35.6 31.9 34.6 Input Power (Watts) 1372 1178 1027 1408 1212 1076 Energy Factor (Gallons/Watt-hr) 2.26 2.49 2.90 2.92 3.20 3.76 Suction (in hg.) 2.9 2.6 2.7 1.9 1.7 1.9 Filter Pressure (psi) 18.7 16.6 17.2 12.9 11.5 12.5 Panel Input Pressure (psi) 5.69 4.15 4.58 2.40 1.26 2.09 Panel Output Pressure (psi) 3.41 1.88 2.30 0.04 -1.09 -0.27

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Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 18th, 2012, 7:26 pm
 New User

Joined: June 11th, 2012, 6:46 pm
Posts: 17
Ok MAS985, BTW. Pump will probably be SP2610X15 as this is the standard for the pool builder with 1.5" plumbing.
Just wondering is the 1.5 super II is a better choice and if I require a High head pump.
Dumb question now, what am I to do with the chart.

Do I substitute the Solar with heat pump, subtract it cause I wont have solar. Add up the items to come up with my head loss

Thanks

Post subject: Re: Hayward Super Pump Vs Super II
Posted: June 18th, 2012, 8:23 pm
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
The SP2610X15 is a little big for your setup and will cost more to run than a smaller pump but if the PB insists on that size pump, then at least request a two speed. That will save you a little money in energy costs when not running solar and able to run on low speed. Of course you could always find a new PB.

The table is showing the operating point of each pump on each size of plumbing. If you are not familiar with the terms in the chart, then focus on the row labeled "Energy Factor (Gallons/Watt-hr)". This is the true efficiency of the pump. Larger pumps tend to have worse efficiency than smaller pumps and larger plumbing has better efficiency than smaller plumbing.

For example, the SP2610X15 will draw around 1372 watts while the 1/2 HP TriStar will draw about 1027 watts. There is a flow rate difference so taking that into account, the Tristar SP3205EE would use about 30% less energy than your PBs pump. Up size the plumbing to 2" and you gain another 30% in energy savings for a total of 66% in energy savings.

Any of these pumps will work on any size plumbing but the real question is how important are energy costs to you?

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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