Need help! Aqualink equipment dead, electrical issue?

[gdavidov]

Can a bad CB then not allow power through to the aqualink and pump? Even if it has been flipped back to ON?

I ask because even after I have flipped the CB back on there are no lights (and no power) to the aqualink other than that 120V line still coming in.

 

[ajw22]

Can a bad CB then not allow power through to the aqualink and pump? Even if it has been flipped back to ON?

I ask because even after I have flipped the CB back on there are no lights (and no power) to the aqualink other than that 120V line still coming in.

Put your voltmeter on the wires connected to the 30 amp CB. If you have no voltage with the CB reset and ON then either the CB or wire is bad.

 

[gdavidov]

Put your voltmeter on the wires connected to the 30 amp CB. If you have no voltage with the CB reset and ON then either the CB or wire is bad.

The wires at the 30A breaker show no voltage even with the breaker ON. So definitely need to replace it.

Last thing I’m left wondering is if the new pump motor, which runs at a higher amperage (about 3A more) than the previous pump motor could have cause this? In other words do I need a higher Amp breaker?

I’m thinking no, it would have just kept tripping the breaker if that was the issue. Do you agree?

 

[HermanTX]

I have labeled the conduits from the equipment and also included a pic of the breakers.
The breakers have two labeled pool (30Aand 20A) and one jacuzzi (10A) as noted in the pic. It was the 30A breaker that was tripping intermittently.

The bottom 20A breaker hasn’t tripped at all and feeds into the aqualink past the gfci where the only live power was found as labeled in the pic.View attachment 549989View attachment 549990

thanks for the photo - that is helpful.
One concern I have is 4 devices (2 pumps, a blower and heater) all coming off of 1 30A breaker. The 20A single pole breaker appears to be for your lights.

What does the switch control? The lights or the pump or the whole system?

 

[gdavidov]

thanks for the photo - that is helpful.
One concern I have is 4 devices (2 pumps, a blower and heater) all coming off of 1 30A breaker. The 20A single pole breaker appears to be for your lights.

What does the switch control? The lights or the pump or the whole system?

I’m not 100% sure what the switch was controlling as I didn’t note it before this started happening and I don’t think I ever used it much. I believe it controlled the pump and aqualink, not sure what else, maybe the rest of the system, blower, heater, and cleaner pump. Can I tell by how the aqualink is wired up?

The 20A with the gfci outlet on it powered the pool and jacuzzi lights as I remember having to reset that a few times to get power back to my pool and jacuzzi lights.

 

[ajw22]

One concern I have is 4 devices (2 pumps, a blower and heater) all coming off of 1 30A breaker.

Blower and cleaner should not be running at the same time.

Heater and cleaner should not be running at the same time.

So 30A breaker is ok for two pumps running, or filter pump and blower and heater.

The problem that one breaker powering all that stuff causes is when a device is causing the CB to trip finding the problem is difficult.

 

[gdavidov]

Blower and cleaner should not be running at the same time.

Heater and cleaner should not be running at the same time.

So 30A breaker is ok for two pumps running, or filter pump and blower and heater.

The problem that one breaker powering all that stuff causes is when a device is causing the CB to trip finding the problem is difficult.

So do you think a 30A with gfci should still be ok to use for that equipment?

In this case I know eveything was running prior to my installing the new pump motor. I had the breakers powered off for a few days while I waited to get the new pump motor. Then it wouldn’t power on after the install. I do think I saw an initial light on the outdoor aqualink center before the breaker tripped the first time. Then after resetting the breaker nothing would come back.

 

[ajw22]

So do you think a 30A with gfci should still be ok to use for that equipment?

Yes, it is ok from an electrical perspective and can be problematic for troubleshooting.

In an Aqualink with a load center you should have separate GFCI breakers for filter pump, cleaner pump, and blower.

 

[wireform]

Heater and cleaner should not be running at the same time.

Why not, say you keep the water at temp X then the heater my be running at the same time while the cleaner is or are you saying the same programed time the cleaner is on should have an off timer for the heater.

 

[ajw22]

Why not, say you keep the water at temp X then the heater my be running at the same time while the cleaner is or are you saying the same programed time the cleaner is on should have an off timer for the heater.

It’s a gas heater. No one should be swimming while the cleaner is running. It is a waste of energy to run the heater while the cleaner is running. Schedule the heater to go on after the cleaner run is done and it will get the pool back up to swimming temperature.

 

[generessler]

Last thing I’m left wondering is if the new pump motor, which runs at a higher amperage (about 3A more) than the previous pump motor could have cause this? In other words do I need a higher Amp breaker?

Yup an added 3A could certainly overload the circuit. You can figure this out from what @HermanTX said. A 30A circuit should be loaded with no more than 24 amps with any possible combination of loads. So take all valid combinations of the four things mentioned. If any one of them adds to more than 24A, the load needs to be redistributed or the circuit capacity increased.

You can't just plug in a bigger breaker. The breaker size matches the wiring in the circuit. It's likely that increasing to say 40A will require pulling new, bigger wire.

One other thing to consider is whether the motor installation is correct. You put the Eco VS motor on the old WhisperFlow pump, no? Are you sure it's set up for the right voltage? Are you sure the impeller is spinning freely?

 

[gdavidov]

Yup an added 3A could certainly overload the circuit. You can figure this out from what @HermanTX said. A 30A circuit should be loaded with no more than 24 amps with any possible combination of loads. So take all valid combinations of the four things mentioned. If any one of them adds to more than 24A, the load needs to be redistributed or the circuit capacity increased.

You can't just plug in a bigger breaker. The breaker size matches the wiring in the circuit. It's likely that increasing to say 40A will require pulling new, bigger wire.

One other thing to consider is whether the motor installation is correct. You put the Eco VS motor on the old WhisperFlow pump, no? Are you sure it's set up for the right voltage? Are you sure the impeller is spinning freely?

I believe the pump install is good. I’ve done it before and am confident that it is ok.

Also I think that the filter pump (13.5A), the Polaris booster pump, blower, heater, and aqualink are all off the same 30A breaker looking through the lines.

I’m 90% sure the back left punch through is the 30A breaker line. Then the items mentioned are all powered off that or their relay is jumpered in if I’m looking at it right.

That being said none of this equipment was on when this issue started as I was just trying to get the power on and the aqualink didn’t come up. So I’m not sure the breaker amperage has come into play yet if it’s an issue.

Also what @ajw22 said regarding the breaker not holding its rating over time and the fact it isn’t passing power now even when set ON makes me think it’s the issue. Of course I’d like that to be the issue because I’m thinking the change to swap the current bad 30A CB with a gfci 30A CB doesn’t sound too bad.

I would like to add up the max amps I need to clear with this equipment in it though. I’ll need to figure out how much the other equipment could draw at one time I guess.

 

[generessler]

That being said none of this equipment was on when this issue started as I was just trying to get the power on and the aqualink didn’t come up. So I’m not sure the breaker amperage has come into play yet if it’s an issue.

Yeah for sure. I was just offering ideas. I also had a 30A breaker wear out. Wouldn't turn on just like yours. I think it might have given up because whoever installed the Aqualink panel didn't torque connections sufficiently, so there was arcing. A relay also bit the bullet.

I also went through an episode after adding a VS pump of having the breaker randomly trip every few weeks. Apparently this is a thing with my brand of pump: the electronics make enough noise to trigger GCFI in some systems. The manual actually calls for a dedicated special Pentair breaker. Turned out my system also had one other pump (cleaner booster), heater, and SWCG on the same non-special breaker. I added the new one to split that load.

Stand by for sticker shock. A 30A GCFI breaker turns out to be about 6x the price of a non-GCFI one. But it's worthwhile for safety in addition to being NEC required.

 

[gdavidov]

Thanks I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. It has been a big help!

I’ll do the gfci breaker this weekend once everything thaws out and I put all the plugs back in.

Is it a straightforward swap to a gfci as far as cabling in the breaker box? Will I need to run any additional cables outside the breaker box?

Now I need to decide whether to do it myself or hire someone. If you have any recommendations in the Plano, TX or DFW area, let me know.

Thanks,
Gabriel

 

[ajw22]

You just need to connect the new white wire on the GFC CB to the neutral bar.

The GFCI CB will be longer.

Difficulty depends how your CB panel is setup.

Be careful working around a panel that is energized.

 

[HermanTX]

Thanks I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. It has been a big help!

I’ll do the gfci breaker this weekend once everything thaws out and I put all the plugs back in.

Is it a straightforward swap to a gfci as far as cabling in the breaker box? Will I need to run any additional cables outside the breaker box?

Now I need to decide whether to do it myself or hire someone. If you have any recommendations in the Plano, TX or DFW area, let me know.

Thanks,
Gabriel

If you are working in a main panel or a subpanel, One of the big differences is the size of the GFCI CB. I had to move around some other breakers to a spot that the GFCI would fit. Then I had to relabel everything.
Be sure to connect the White wire to the neutral bar as standard CBs do not have that white wire.

 

[generessler]

You probably know this, but the CB needs to match the panel model. They aren't one-kind-fits-all.

 

[gdavidov]

UPDATE: I have now changed the breaker at the box with a 30A GFCI breaker. I confirmed 120V is coming out of the breaker when ON.

I also changed the switch at the pool equipment feeding the 30A line to the aqualink, pump, etc. The old switch was a 15/20A switch which I replaced with a 30A Double Pole switch. I confirmed 120V is coming into the switch.

The new breaker still trips when I turn the switch at the equipment on. Does this mean I have a short in the wiring maybe?

Any thoughts on how I can troubleshoot this further now that the breaker and switch are confirmed to be good?

 

[ajw22]

You are now stuck with the problem of diagnosing which device is causing the breaker trip when many devices are fed by one breaker.

You need to use a process of elimination and disconnect everything you can and then connect then back one at a time.

I would begin with pulling the plugs from all the relay connections to the PCB. Label everything before you disconnect so you know where to reconnect.

If the breaker trips then you will need to start disconnect wires in the Aqualink.

If the breaker does not trip then connect one relay at a time and see which one trips the breaker.

 

[generessler]

What @ajw22 said, but you might save yourself some time by using the resistance (Ohms) function of your meter to check each load (feeds for lights, booster, heater, etc. after disconnect from the line). To trip a 30A breaker requires an impedance of less than 4 ohms. So any load resistance higher than that is unlikely to be a culprit. Not 100%, but nearly.

It sure sounds like you have a dead short: failed insulation for example. That will show up as a load resistance of less than an ohm.

nb: Resistance measurements are made with POWER COMPLETELY OFF.