Plumbing Trench Collapse Before Backfill

Ktm41

Member
Sep 2, 2023
19
Inland Empire, California
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
First time poster, long time lurker! We are under construction. We had our city plumbing inspection two days ago and had shotcrete installed yesterday. The plans call for the plumbing trenches to be backfilled with sand. Unfortunately a lot of the plumbing trenches caved in during shotcrete and now we have rocks and debris on the pipes. Our soil is VERY rocky. Wondering how big of a concern this is and what a remedy might be. Including some photos!

658888EE-1D81-4644-830E-BBB4997D397F.jpegE084B926-7E5A-4BE7-A118-DF6073940A7F.jpeg
 
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Workers throwing trash into the trenches is sloppy and lazy.

Good crews maintain a clean jobsite.


e084b926-7e5a-4be7-a118-df6073940a7f-jpeg.539899
 
We are building a pool in So Cal in very rocky soil and had shotcrete installed yesterday. When interviewing pool builders we were told that 4000-4500 psi shotcrete was a best practice although it exceeds local code requirements. Because of that we had our pool builder specify 4500 PSI in the contract and the plans call for “4500 PSI @ 28 days compressive strength with water / cement ratio of 0.45.”

We got the paperwork from the shotcrete sub and all the paperwork specified 3500 PSI. We have a few questions before talk in to the PB:

How big of a deal is 3500 vs 4500?

Should there be a cost difference and, if so, how much of a credit would be warranted?

Does the language in the plans leave room for the PB to argue that the 3500 PSI shotcrete will cure to 4500? We’ve read with proper workmanship it can cure with a higher PSI but that seems impossible to verify without core samples and testing?

Thanks for any insight!
 
Pressure testing now is a must before moving on but only after all the manual labor is done to remove the debris as there's that chance to lose your footing while at it and crack something while you're at it.
Thank you! This is helpful. We will make sure to be on-site for pressure testing given the circumstances.
 
"Though many pool builders feel a 2500 psi (17 MPa) 28-day compressive strength is adequate for pool construction, ASA’s position is that shotcrete must have a minimum 4000 psi (28 MPa) to allow proper encasement of reinforcement, low permeability, and long-term durability.

This is especially important in shotcreted pool shells that are expected to be watertight and provide decades of troublefree service.

This topic is covered in more detail in the “Overview of ASA Position Statements” article on p. 28 of this issue and online in Pool and Recreational Shotcrete Committee Position Statement #1 (www.shotcrete.org/media/pdf/ASAPositionPaper_PoolRec_1.pdf).

ASA Position Statement #4, “Watertight Shotcrete for Swimming Pools,” explains that ACI 350, “Code Requirements for Environmental Engineering Concrete Structures,” mandates a maximum w/cm of 0.45 with a minimum 4000 psi for concrete intended to have low permeability when exposed to water.

If concrete water-containing structures are exposed to freezing and thawing while saturated (a common occurrence in northern climates), an even lower maximum w/cm of 0.42, with a minimum 4500 psi (31 MPa) is required".



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The American Shotcrete Association’s (ASA) Pool and Recreational Shotcrete Committee and ASA Board of Direction have reaffirmed a 4000 psi (27.6 MPa) minimum for in-place compressive strength pool concrete

 

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Pressure testing should be continuous until plaster is installed.

3,500-4,500 PSI cost difference will be minimal.

Having a core sample is the only way to make a determination of the final PSI.

Can your builder provide a copy of the delivery ticket from any of the cement trucks to determine the water content of the mix?

Steel Engineering plans will have the PSI requirement for your specific soils condition.
 
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"Though many pool builders feel a 2500 psi (17 MPa) 28-day compressive strength is adequate for pool construction, ASA’s position is that shotcrete must have a minimum 4000 psi (28 MPa) to allow proper encasement of reinforcement, low permeability, and long-term durability.

This is especially important in shotcreted pool shells that are expected to be watertight and provide decades of troublefree service.

This topic is covered in more detail in the “Overview of ASA Position Statements” article on p. 28 of this issue and online in Pool and Recreational Shotcrete Committee Position Statement #1 (www.shotcrete.org/media/pdf/ASAPositionPaper_PoolRec_1.pdf).

ASA Position Statement #4, “Watertight Shotcrete for Swimming Pools,” explains that ACI 350, “Code Requirements for Environmental Engineering Concrete Structures,” mandates a maximum w/cm of 0.45 with a minimum 4000 psi for concrete intended to have low permeability when exposed to water.

If concrete water-containing structures are exposed to freezing and thawing while saturated (a common occurrence in northern climates), an even lower maximum w/cm of 0.42, with a minimum 4500 psi (31 MPa) is required".



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The American Shotcrete Association’s (ASA) Pool and Recreational Shotcrete Committee and ASA Board of Direction have reaffirmed a 4000 psi (27.6 MPa) minimum for in-place compressive strength pool concrete

Thank you. We had read the same and that’s why we built it into the contract and plans. Given the language on the plans what do you think our next step should be? Demoing and starting over seems drastic and I seriously doubt the builder would agree without a fight. I’m thinking we may be stuck asking for a credit but I’m not sure how much would be appropriate or warranted.
 
Maybe get a core sample tested for compressive strength at 28 + days to see what the compressive strength actually is.

Find a local engineer that does core testing and ask them for their recommendations.
 
Pressure testing should be continuous until plaster is installed.

3,500-4,500 PSI cost difference will be minimal.

Having a core sample is the only way to make a determination of the final PSI.

Can your builder provide a copy of the delivery ticket from any of the cement trucks to determine the water content of the mix?

Steel Engineering plans will have the PSI requirement for your specific soils condition.
This is one of the delivery tickets that specifies 3500 but the rest of the information doesn’t mean much to me
 

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Who did the engineering plans for the pool?

The required psi depends on the engineer's recommendations.

Different conditions require different levels of concrete compressive strength, thickness, rebar size, rebar placement etc.

In some cases, extra strength is required and sometimes special engineering is required like piers, piles etc. depending on the soil.
 
Who did the engineering plans for the pool?

The required psi depends on the engineer's recommendations.

Different conditions require different levels of concrete compressive strength, thickness, rebar size, rebar placement etc.

In some cases, extra strength is required and sometimes special engineering is required like piers, piles etc. depending on the soil.
These are the sections that refer to PSI on the approved plans. The contract states 4500 PSI which is what we discussed so when we saw 3500 on the ticket from the shotcrete sub it raised a question. We don’t know how to read the water content information from the ticket or how to interpret “28 day compressive strength” vs the psi they shot with.
 

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