Cloudy/Foamy Water After Calcium Treatment

[Econdron]

I think this is a bit of a unique scenario, but long story short, I had some major calcium issues. Calcium flakes were floating around my fiberglass pool, constantly filling up the vacuum, and there were lots of white stains on the shell. TFP gave me some ideas, but nothing worked. My CSI was in the slightly below 0 range, so technically I shouldn't have been having calcium issues, if I understand that correctly. I ended up trying a calcium treatment kit from here: Pool Stain Removers | Trusted Experts in Swimming Pool Stain Removal The water was cloudy after adding the kit, but the next day it was sparkling clear and all the stains were gone. I did notice a slimy feel around the fiberglass shell.

Fast forward about 2 weeks from adding the kit, the pool overnight turned cloudy and the water foams under the water features. The company I bought the kit from keeps ensuring me this is normal, and it will all work itself out in a few days, but I'm starting to get worried it's not going to clear up and things are just getting worse. They say the cloudiness is from their kit starting to break down. The biggest issue is the acids in the kit stop any chlorine reading, so I have no idea of knowing how much chlorine is in the pool. The water isn't green at all. My SWG has been at 100% for about a week now, though I just turned it back down to 30% yesterday, and I've also added some extra dichlor (in ~8oz increments per day, sometimes 16oz).

At this point I'm just shooting in the dark. I have no idea what to do any more. Has anyone done this kit, or similar, and have any experience with something like this? Every time I read about a cloudy pool, the response is to SLAM, but this company specifically says do NOT do that, and just wait a couple more days. They did say their product does contain some phosphates, so I should try a phosphate remover.

I can share the list of dates/events that happened after adding the kit in regards to the chemicals I added, settings I changed, etc, if it matters. Any help/advice is much appreciated!

 

[Texas Splash]

Your Poolmath logs are out of date, so let's start with a full set of water test results. Calcium, if that indeed was the initial issue, is completely separate from the need for free chlorine and algae control. I have not used that product, but if the FC level fell and their product added phosphates on top of that, well, that's a recipe for algae.

Do you have any before & after pics you could share?

 

[Econdron]

Your Poolmath logs are out of date, so let's start with a full set of water test results. Calcium, if that indeed was the initial issue, is completely separate from the need for free chlorine and algae control. I have not used that product, but if the FC level fell and their product added phosphates on top of that, well, that's a recipe for algae.

Do you have any before & after pics you could share?

I don't have any pics from before, but I can take some later today when I get home. My most recent readings were:

PH - 7.0
TA - 50-60
Hardness - 275
CYA - 40

Chlorine just reads 0, which I know is not accurate. I'll be honest, I haven't taken any readings since it became cloudy, but I'll do that today too.

The kit I added included a jug of liquid, and 4 large bags of powder. I have no idea what the contents are, but I have a slight hunch that part of the mix included an algaecide, which may explain the foaming. The response I keep getting from this company is something along the lines of "Don't worry, this treatment has been successfully done on over 10,000 pools and our technicians have personally performed this treatment on over 5,000 pools. You're doing it right, just be patient". So they seem very confident it will fix itself, but the weather is starting to warm up and I'd like to start using the pool and I feel like this is already taking longer than they said.

 

[Econdron]

Here are some pictures of the water, taken from both ends, and with the water features on. You can see some of the foaming. The foaming has actually gotten much better. Test readings were pretty similar to what I posted above. Chlorine is still reading at 0.

 

[Econdron]

Does anyone know of anyway to test even approximately how much chlorine is in water without using conventional testing? My pool is still cloudy and almost starting to have a chemical-like smell. I'm a little worried maybe there's way too much chlorine? SWG has been at 100% for about a week now and I've been adding a quart of 10% chlorine every day, per the recommendation of the guy who sold me this kit.

 

[PoolStored]

Does anyone know of anyway to test even approximately how much chlorine is in water without using conventional testing? My pool is still cloudy and almost starting to have a chemical-like smell. I'm a little worried maybe there's way too much chlorine? SWG has been at 100% for about a week now and I've been adding a quart of 10% chlorine every day, per the recommendation of the guy who sold me this kit.

Test with the FAS-DPD in your TF-100 and post results. I think you are way beyond the kit and you should follow TFP, we'll get you fixed. Post a full set of results.

 

[Donldson]

If you have a TF-100 then you have the OTO test for Total Chlorine next to the pH test. It isn't very precise, but it does definitively tell you if there's chlorine in the water. Use that and if the sample doesn't turn yellow then there is no free chlorine nor combined chlorine in the water.

 

[Econdron]

I don't know what's in the calcium treatment kit, but I know they say it will stop chlorine tests for up to 6 weeks after adding the kit. I tested anyway and the FAS/DPD gave me 0 and the OTO kit turned slightly yellow. But again, I don't know if these are even accurate...

 

[PoolStored]

Let's get going and clean this pool up.

I would get your FC up to the top of the recommended range for your CYA...and do it now. And keep it there. Link-->FC/CYA Levels

Can you post a full set of test results into pool math so that we can see current state?

Trust your test kit, not the pool store.

Sincerely,
PoolStored

 

[Donldson]

There is nothing that interferes with the OTO test, if it is clear then you have no chlorine.

 

[Econdron]

Let's get going and clean this pool up.

I would get your FC up to the top of the recommended range for your CYA...and do it now. And keep it there. Link-->FC/CYA Levels

Can you post a full set of test results into pool math so that we can see current state?

Trust your test kit, not the pool store.

Sincerely,
PoolStored

I took a full set of tests with the TF-100, the colorQ, a test trip, and the OTO test. Here's what I got:

TF-100
FC - 0 (Maybe slightly more?)
CC - 5.5
TA - 60
CH - 250
CYA - 40-50

ColorQ
FC - 0.75
CC - 5.27
PH - 7.8
TA - 108
CH - 231
CYA - 37

Test Strip
FC - 0 - 0.5
TC - .5-1
PH - 7.0
TA - 80-120
CYA - 0-30

OTO Test
Chlorine - 2-4
PH - 7.8

I know you guys are really big on trusting the TF-100 test kit, but it seems odd to me that the company with the kit specifically said test kits would not read FC and would give a high CC reading, and they specifically say DO NOT shock your pool. But I think I'm just about done with their advice... But I'm worried I have more Chlorine in the pool than what's reading and shocking is going to bleach the fiberglass shell.

 

[PoolStored]

test kits would not read FC and would give a high CC reading

I still think the best course of action is 1) trust your TF-100, 2) I'd get the SLAM on. To be safe...let's get some other eyes on this.

Team, here is what he added (dissolving compound and liquid):

Calcium buildup in your Pool? Remove it without draining or acid washing

Our products dissolve calcium buildup in pool surfaces without draining or acid washing the pool. They also prevent calcium from coming back.

www.poolstainremovers.com

Ideas on what would be in there that would not allow a chlorine reading using FAS-DPD and high CCs? MPS? AA? Don't know why they would use that for calcium.

Calling the Calvary: @mknauss @JoyfulNoise @ajw22 @JamesW @Newdude @Donldson @Texas Splash

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So I just got back from camping but my initial read on this is that you got snookered into using some combination of oxalic acid and/or sulfamic acid, along with sequestering agents, to remove calcium and other metal stains. Both of those granular acids are TERRIBLE to add to a chlorine pool because they convert free chlorine into a combined chlorine compound (n-chlorosulfamate) which is an extremely slow sanitizer and weak oxidizer. It also takes a very long time to go away, sometimes weeks or over a month. This is why when you add chlorine you register almost no FC and very high CC because of the conversion reaction.

You have limited options at this point -

1. Suck it up and deal with just keeping your Total Chlorine elevated until all the garbage goes away (and you stains could return),

OR

2. Drain the pool water (if it can be done safely without floating the pool) and start over.

Not much else can be done if what I surmise is correct.

 

[PoolStored]

@JoyfulNoise Thank you, I suspected it was some chemical I hadn't had experience with yet. As always, appreciate your dedication to TFP.

Why would they use these chemicals to remove CH flakes...I don't get that.

@Econdron you have an answer from one of our foremost chemistry experts at TFP. You won't find a better answer. Anywhere.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

@JoyfulNoise Thank you, I suspected it was some chemical I hadn't had experience with yet. As always, appreciate your dedication to TFP.

Why would they use these chemicals to remove CH flakes...I don't get that.

@Econdron you have an answer from one of our foremost chemistry experts at TFP. You won't find a better answer. Anywhere.

Both sulfamic acid and oxalic acid can dissolve mineral scale. They are common organic acids used in toilet bowl cleaners. They not only lower pH which makes metal and mineral stains more soluble in water, but they also strongly chelate the metal ions once they dissolve. The problem is, they also strongly reacting with halogen oxidizers like chlorine and so they are not suited for swimming pools.

And, as an aside, oxalic acid is NOT a benign chemical. Calcium oxalate crystals are one of the main components of kidney stone formation. Black and green teas are very high in oxalate content and people that can’t regulate blood calcium concentrations well are susceptible to oxalate kidney stones. In extreme cases of oxalic acid poisoning, people die from kidney failure. This is one reason why I really hate these stain treatment chemicals. They are not well regulated and people tend to overdose pools with them thinking that if a little bit works well then a lot will work better.

 

[Econdron]

So I just got back from camping but my initial read on this is that you got snookered into using some combination of oxalic acid and/or sulfamic acid, along with sequestering agents, to remove calcium and other metal stains. Both of those granular acids are TERRIBLE to add to a chlorine pool because they convert free chlorine into a combined chlorine compound (n-chlorosulfamate) which is an extremely slow sanitizer and weak oxidizer. It also takes a very long time to go away, sometimes weeks or over a month. This is why when you add chlorine you register almost no FC and very high CC because of the conversion reaction.

You have limited options at this point -

1. Suck it up and deal with just keeping your Total Chlorine elevated until all the garbage goes away (and you stains could return),

OR

2. Drain the pool water (if it can be done safely without floating the pool) and start over.

Not much else can be done if what I surmise is correct.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks so much for your expertise and detailed response! I wish I kept the packaging because it did say the acids that were in there. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm almost positive I read sulfamic acid on one of the granular bags.

It's already coming up in 3 weeks since I added the kit, and I definitely don't want to take the chance of lifting the pool, so I'm leaning towards just waiting a little longer.

What would be your recommendation for pool maintenence at this point? Keeping adding a quart of bleach every day and keep the SWG at 100% until the CC's come down?

 

[PoolStored]

What would be your recommendation for pool maintenence at this point? Keeping adding a quart of bleach every day and keep the SWG at 100% until the CC's come down?

@JoyfulNoise may come back, but I would SLAM the pool until all that stuff is gone. That is the fastest way to deal with it. (see his note on keeping FC elevated as an option..that is what he means).

 

[Econdron]

@JoyfulNoise may come back, but I would SLAM the pool until all that stuff is gone. That is the fastest way to deal with it. (see his note on keeping FC elevated as an option..that is what he means).

Maybe I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that JoyfulNoise was saying more chlorine isn't necessarily a good thing in this case because it will continue to convert to a form of CC? I guess how can I SLAM the pool if all my FC just turns to CC right away?

 

[PoolStored]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that JoyfulNoise was saying more chlorine isn't necessarily a good thing in this case because it will continue to convert to a form of CC? I guess how can I SLAM the pool if all my FC just turns to CC right away?

He said "keeping your Total Chlorine elevated" you do that by adding chlorine.

 

[Econdron]

He said "keeping your Total Chlorine elevated" you do that by adding chlorine.

So I should SLAM and use the TCL numbers instead of FC? Just trying to make sure I do this right. I'm very grateful for your help and you taking the time to reply to me!