More bad press for Salt pools...

[rinaldok]

The topic has been beaten to death... industry "pros" generally have bad things to say about salt pools. My take is that they are not well-informed, they are sensationalistic, and want to sell you very expensive and borderline silly things like UV and other magic sanitizers because they can make a ton of money on them.

We've all heard the arguments about how corrosive the salt is and damages this and that and everything, and we all know the counterpoints of proper salt levels are very low PPM and should be relatively benign.

Well, my decking was totally redone 4 years ago and already has some significant cracking. Some is bond beam cracking, some appears to be from a tree root (and I will be addressing the tree root before repairing the deck).

*HOWEVER* -- I have now had 3 different decking companies tell me that "we're just now starting to learn the long-term effects of salt pools now that some of the earlier ones have been in service for 15-20 years" and they have ALL said that the Registrar of Contractors has issued revisions based on concrete workmanship warranties when it's a salt pool, and the reasoning they give is that no deck/concrete company can be held responsible for more than 1 year for concrete work on salt pools because apparently what they claim they're learning is that over time, the salt water is "softening" the concrete and causing more issues with failure and cracking. The decking contractors have even gone so far as to say it's reducing the life of pebble and plaster surfaces because they're concrete based, and will eventually compromise the pool shell in a similar way.

Now, I'm neither a chemist nor a concrete guy, so I don't how much validity to afford to claims like this.

Is this a thing? Can salt "soften" cured concrete and cause permanent damage? Or is this more fear-mongering by an industry that wants to sell me snake oil, only now they've managed to get the ROC to parrot misinformation?

 

[Newdude]

Everybody gets to blame their poor workmanship or low quality materials on the pool, and not where the blame belongs.

Darn near every bridge in the land over salt water uses concrete supports that take a lifetime to wear. Imagine if they all cracked after a year or two, or 10. And that's at 10X the pool salinity with water current and storms pounding them. So yeah. No.

 

[rinaldok]

Everybody gets to blame their poor workmanship or low quality materials on the pool, and not where the blame belongs.

Darn near every bridge in the land over salt water uses concrete supports that take a lifetime to wear. Imagine if they all cracked after a year or two, or 10. And that's at 10X the pool salinity with water current and storms pounding them. So yeah. No.

I did consider that, but even though I disclaimed that I'm not a concrete guy, I do know that not all concrete is the same and that the formulas, ingredients, and mixes they use for bridges over salt water are undoubtedly vastly different than a pool shell or decking in my back yard and are certainly formulated specifically to resist degradation by salt and minerals given their use case. Industrial and life-safety systems are going to have very little in common with residential/recreational.

So while it may (and likely is) a case of poor workmanship and/or low-quality materials being pervasive in this industry, "it is what it is" and my question is more of whether I should be concerned about my potentially low-quality materials being affected by my choice to have salt in my pool. I'd rather bite the bullet and change to a different chlorinating method than have to re-pour my pool shell at some point. Of course, my best-case here is that these fears are nonsense being propagated by an industry that has a reputation for inventing problems in order to sell you the cure, but I can't pretend to have the knowledge to be confident in dismissing it at this point. The tipping point was hearing that the ROC is apparently on board with these "salt destroys pools" claims now, to some degree, and that's where my concern came from. My experiences in the past with the ROC, while limited, have indicated that they try to be the voice of reason, but in this case it feels like either maybe that's not the case or maybe they independently agree with these assessments, or maybe they're being lobbied or payed off. Who knows. Not me, that's why I ask these questions.

 

[ajw22]

I think it is great so that maybe demand for SWG cells will drop and thus prices will drop.

There are many other deck choices then concrete for those who want a SWG and are concerned.

 

[rinaldok]

I think it is great so that maybe demand for SWG cells will drop and thus prices will drop.

There are many other deck choices then concrete for those who want a SWG and are concerned.

I think it's a bit cost-silly to rip and replace my decking when I could replace my chlorine source. I'm trying to ask a specific question about realistic potential for degradation vs. fear mongering nonsense.

 

[Newdude]

it is what it is" and my question is more of whether I should be concerned about my potentially low-quality materials being affected by my choice to have salt in my pool.

The point was that there will be a problem if there is going to be a problem, either way. The water salinity difference of going from 5% to 10% of the ocean will not change anything.

The entire argument against salt pools is that 5% is ok and 10% is not.

5 years from now after shunning salt, they will have nobody to blame but themselves when the same problems occur.

Unless everyone gets suckered into UV / Ozone systems in the meantime. Then it will be their fault that the site wasn't prepped well or the cement mix / application wasn't durable.

 

[rinaldok]

The point was that there will be a problem if there is going to be a problem, either way. The water salinity difference of going from 5% to 10% of the ocean will not change anything.

The entire argument against salt pools is that 5% is ok and 10% is not.

That's fair, and it leans to the side that this is fear mongering. It is curious that they seem to have support from the ROC now, which calls into question the integrity/validity of the ROC now if they're not doing true due diligence before supporting these claims.

 

[Newdude]

which calls into question the integrity/validity of the ROC now if they're not doing true due diligence before supporting these claims.

It's all over the internet and a well known fact. Salt is terrible for concrete.

Where we have snow and they apply it, forget parts per million, but *million parts per* Seriously the sidewalk is crunchy as you walk down it there is so much salt applied for a razor thin layer of ice.

Pools have zero to do with the application of winter salt up north, which can and does destroy concrete sidewalks and roads.

 

[ajw22]

Wait until they learn that many pools turn into "salt" pools even if there is not a SWG from the accumulated salt in liquid chlorine or tablets.

 

[proavia]

*HOWEVER* -- I have now had 3 different decking companies tell me that "we're just now starting to learn the long-term effects of salt pools now that some of the earlier ones have been in service for 15-20 years" and they have ALL said that the Registrar of Contractors has issued revisions based on concrete workmanship warranties when it's a salt pool, and the reasoning they give is that no deck/concrete company can be held responsible for more than 1 year for concrete work on salt pools because apparently what they claim they're learning is that over time, the salt water is "softening" the concrete and causing more issues with failure and cracking. The decking contractors have even gone so far as to say it's reducing the life of pebble and plaster surfaces because they're concrete based, and will eventually compromise the pool shell in a similar way.

Ask them to provide written proof of said ROC "revisions based on concrete workmanship warranties when it's a salt pool, and the reasoning they give is that no deck/concrete company can be held responsible for more than 1 year for concrete work on salt pools because apparently what they claim they're learning is that over time, the salt water is "softening" the concrete and causing more issues with failure and cracking."

Or contact the AZ ROC and ask them directly - Arizona Registrar of Contractors | Protect the health, safety and welfare of the public through a regulatory system designed to promote quality construction by Arizona contractors.

If a SWG erodes concrete, one would think the plaster would be the first thing to show mass erosion.

 

[Bperry]

I do know that not all concrete is the same and that the formulas, ingredients, and mixes they use for bridges over salt water are undoubtedly vastly different than a pool shell or decking in my back yard and are certainly formulated specifically to resist degradation by salt and minerals given their use case. Industrial and life-safety systems are going to have very little in common with residential/recreational.

Are you sure about that? Good concrete and good beer both have ONLY 4 components (obviously not the same 4). The differences are in the proportion of those components.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

10 years in with my concrete pool deck and salt pool and …. the deck and pool are the same as the day they were finished. The contractor that did my pool deck was a weathered 90 year old Mormon dude with one helper … he spoke very few words, was deaf as a stone and his communication style was simple - do as he says or shut your dang mouth and he’ll do it himself. He laid out the forms, had the young kid do all the grading and shoveling, and he mixed the concrete himself. The young kid screeded the concrete into place but the old man was the one that troweled and cut it. His hands did the work and no one else’s. When it was time to acid wash the deck, he stood there with no respirator on and poured the acid straight from the bottle and scrubbed it around himself while the kid wore a full face 3M respirator. I paid him his cash, he handed me a hand written bill with paid in full and his signature on it, and he left the job site as clean as it was when he arrived.

10 years later he’s probably dead and buried but his workmanship lives on under my feet everyday.

What you have read in the news is utter plain and simple. There are simply lousy contractors out there that want to blame their poor workmanship on other things and not stand by what they do. It’s that simple.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Last I checked, salt doesnt have a very good incentive trip for pool builders. I cant say the same about the other types of sanitization. I guess I too would tell people horror stories about salt if it got me a trip to Costa Rica every year.

https://portal.cinderellainc.com/customer/docs/Dealer%20Incentive%20Program%202022.pdf

Free trip to Paradise with Pentair | Eurospapoolnews.com

Dealers who will join the Partners Incentive Program (PIP) 2010 before 30/09/2010 will take part in a prize draw consisting in a free trip to the Marquis Resort in Los Cabos, Mexico for 2 people (1 room) between all registered dealers. The goal of The PIP Program “Path to Paradise” is to

www.eurospapoolnews.com

 

[Toxophilite]

Wow! Entire causeways over bays built down here from concrete pilings, barnacles and all. Haven't seen a bridge fall yet.

 

[wireform]

Unless everyone gets suckered into UV / Ozone systems in the meantime.

I guess the uv/ozone systems will go down in price since not enough op's jump ship.

 

[mgtfp]

Salt water pools generally have a very good reputation in Australia, I've recently read that about 70% of Australian pools are salt water pools. I have never heard a negative word about them here. I frankly don't understand what US pool "professionals" are banging on about.

Many of the main Aussie SWG brands require higher salt levels compared to US models, typically 4000-5000ppm, often specified up to 8000ppm. And I don't think that the renovation frenzy that Aussies seem to be constantly in, is due to crumbling concrete.

It seems to be common sense here to go the salt route, if you prefer your pool to be trouble free and low maintenance.

The pool service companies here seem to have understood that SWG pools allow them to successfully maintain pools on a weekly schedule, keeping their customers happy. Happy customers are returning customers.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Toxophilite]

Salt water pools generally have a very good reputation in Australia, I've recently read that about 70% of Australian pools are salt water pools. I have never heard a negative word about them here. I frankly don't understand what US pool "professionals" are banging on about.

Many of the main Aussie SWG brands require higher salt levels compared to US models, typically 4000-5000ppm, often specified up to 8000ppm. And I don't think that the renovation frenzy that Aussies seem to be constantly in, is due to crumbling concrete.

It seems to be common sense here to go the salt route, if you prefer your pool to be trouble free and low maintenance.

The pool service companies here seem to have understood that SWG pools allow them to successfully maintain pools on a weekly schedule, keeping their customers happy. Happy customers are returning customers.

Just my 2 cents...

Here, we tend to conflate our environmental ignorance with unfettered capitalism. I remember shopping for my first pool in the 90's. Every glossy brochure pushing saltwater pools was about saving the environment from nasty, polluting, chlorine. I remember the graphs showing how many pools and how much chlorine was going to the atmosphere! Now, I come back to the pool world and find, it was never about chlorine. It's the same dang thing and amounts. But, that nasty chlorine still gotta go so it's about newer alternatives, that will, again, require chlorine in the end!!!

 

[pjt]

I could replace my chlorine source

Even if you change your chlorine source, you'll still have salt in your water. Sometimes that salt level far exceeds what is needed to operate a SWG.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

And yes, there are many different formulations of concrete with various types of additives that can not only change the compressive stress of the mixture but also modify how the concrete interacts with different types of salts and weather conditions. Concrete that is formulated for use in and around roadways will be different than the stuff you buy by the bag at Home Depot and different from the concrete used in bridge pilings. Contractors can choose the grade of concrete they use and even specify special mixes when they order it. If they are installing a deck around a pool where chloride ions are going to be ever present, then they should work with their concrete supplier to pick a formulation that works well. Sadly, the reality is that most contractors will use the cheapest materials possible to maximize their gain and they will charge you a premium price for stuff that is readily available by the pallet at Lowes.

 

[Toxophilite]

And yes, there are many different formulations of concrete with various types of additives that can not only change the compressive stress of the mixture but also modify how the concrete interacts with different types of salts and weather conditions. Concrete that is formulated for use in and around roadways will be different than the stuff you buy by the bag at Home Depot and different from the concrete used in bridge pilings. Contractors can choose the grade of concrete they use and even specify special mixes when they order it. If they are installing a deck around a pool where chloride ions are going to be ever present, then they should work with their concrete supplier to pick a formulation that works well. Sadly, the reality is that most contractors will use the cheapest materials possible to maximize their gain and they will charge you a premium price for stuff that is readily available by the pallet at Lowes.

I fully agree, but if their metric was 15-20 year old flatwork? The cheap stuff is still holding its own for such a purpose. That old, a sidewalk here would be acid washed by rain down to just pebbles.