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Post subject: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 11th, 2012, 6:40 pm

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out what the flow curves are on the pump I have.

There is a metal decal on the impeller housing that reads:
Model Number: P2RA5E-124L
Code number: IL89S
STARITE INDUSTRIES.

I can't seem to find information on this particular pump. Apparently its been replaced with a new model.

Any help would be great.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 11th, 2012, 8:38 pm

Joined: May 7th, 2007, 3:03 pm
Posts: 29842
Location: Silver Spring, MD
That is a StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP up-rated pump. I believe that is curve C on the graph on page 2 of this brochure.

_________________
19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
TFP Admin. Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 8:49 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
Thank you. I guess I need to calculate the actual head of my pool, so I can get an accurate flow rate.

My filter clean is 15psi using that formula from the hydraulics page. It gives me 37.65 on the return side.

For the suction side, I'll go and get a vacuum gauge after work. I do have a question about that. The drain plug look like its maybe 1/2" Do the vacuum gauges have a 1/2" threaded ends? I just want to make sure I buy what I need so I can do this right.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 9:29 am
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Why do you need accurate flow rate?

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 9:59 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
There was an assertion that my equipment (filter and pump) are mismatched. Because the flow rate of the pump exceeds the maximum flow rate of the filter. When I attempted to discuss this point, I realized I don't have enough information about my system to be able to do that intelligently. The pool person was making assumptions (system head, and in turn pump flow rate, etc...) but since I didn't have anything more specific, I couldn't really argue.

I tried finding the flow curve on my own, but was having trouble. You folks here are very knowledgeable, I figured someone could point me in the right direction. As I understand it, I need to know my total head, so I can find the actual flow rate the pump is producing. Then I verify that things are within range. Also, I guess there is a bit of curiosity as well.

A side question. Does the filter need to be clean to get an accurate reading on the suction side?

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 10:35 am
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Yes, the return side plumbing head affects flow rate which in turn affects suction head. But I suspect the flow rate will be more than the recommended 62 GPM unless there is a lot of suction head (> 15').

A simple fix is an impeller swap.

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 12:29 pm

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
*sigh*
Well, I appreciate your advice and expertise. I'll still check and confirm it. At least then I'll know.

To to fix this I can, replace the impeller, pump or filter?

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 12th, 2012, 2:45 pm
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Yes but obviously, the impeller would be the cheapest and most energy savings change.

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 13th, 2012, 8:29 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
I'm trouble finding a vacuum gauge. The local auto parts places don't seem to have them. Even the kind that come on a break bleeder kits. I'll just order one online.

If it hasn't been said, thank you Mark and Jason. As always, your opinions and advice are both appreciated and valued.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 9:33 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
Not sure if I should post on this thread or start a new one. If I need to start a new one let me know or split thing one off.

I've been wanting to replace my filter for awhile and this is kind of an excuse to do so. I don't know, something about using all that water to backwash was the filter just rubs me the wrong way. It convenient yes, but feels wasteful to me. (This is just my personal feeling, not trying to pick a fight or claim one filter is better than another.) I guess living in CA all those years rubbed off on me.

At any rate, I'd like to get a cartridge filter. Since mismatched components was the catalyst to get me looking, I was curious if is it possible to go too big? Do they have a minimum flow rate. I was looking at some of the documentation for the Pentair and Hayward models there doesn't seem to be minimums, there is a pressure loss vs flow chart but I don't think that's the same thing.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 9:42 am
 Special Contributor

Joined: April 1st, 2007, 8:12 am
Posts: 18992
Location: Raleigh, NC
Quote:
I was curious if is it possible to go too big?
Not with a cartridge filter. Ideally, you should determine your pump gpm and then get a filter that exceeds that gpm by at least 25%.

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Site Owner
TFTestkits owner
TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 9:49 am
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Your pool is about the same size as mine and I have a 420 sq-ft filter. I clean it once per season, usually in the spring. I prefer the cartridge filter for several reasons. First, as you pointed out, there is no back washing. Second, it has the lowest head loss of any filter so it helps the system have higher flow rates and higher efficiency. Third, if sized properly, it probably has the least amount of maintenance. And NO, they do not have minimum flow rates but neither does any other filter.

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 10:23 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
Thanks again guys. That info about your filter is good to know Mark, once per season is exactly what I'm looking for. Those other reasons are good to know and a great bonuses to boot.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 10:26 am

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
Oh one more question for your Mark. You say you only clear your filter about once a season. Is that using that 1-2psi rise guideline you mentioned in other posts?

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 14th, 2012, 10:52 am
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
I don't get much of a PSI rise if any when I clean the filter but the filter is still pretty dirty. I probably could go two years between cleanings if I wanted to. Given your location, you may get a PSI rise by the time you clean the filter.

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 20th, 2012, 3:44 pm

Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 6:38 am
Posts: 217
Location: Metro Atlanta, Georgia
*UPDATE*
Just figured I'd give everyone an update. The new filter is installed. I got a Pentair Clean and Clear Plus 420. (The Hayward and Pentair models are so similar, it didn't seem like it mattered which I chose). At any rate, the numbers

Clean Filter PSI 9
Vacuum Hg 10

Using the math from the hydraulics 101 page I get 35.09 feet of head. So that pump is producing quite a bit of GPM according to that chart (70+gpm). But the max flow rate is 150GPM and this is safely under that amount.

One thing of note, that filter made a surprising difference in the flow in the pool. Both the returns and skimmers seem to be moving water noticeably faster than before.

Thanks again for your help everyone.

_________________
19,600 gal, Vinyl, Grecian L, StaRite Dura-Glas 1 HP pump, 3/4hp booster, Pentair Clean and Clear 420 Cartridge filter
The Pool Cleaner 4x, PoolSkim

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
I am glad everything worked out ok and hopefully you will have long time spans between filter cleanings.

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: November 10th, 2012, 8:18 pm
 Registered User

Joined: October 2nd, 2012, 7:07 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Southern California
I shouldn't be tagging onto an old thread at this late date, but I have the same question that Puffin asked mid-way through ( and a direct answer was not supplied ) --- Where do do find a vacuum gauge that fits the drain plug of the pump? I likewise could not find an online answer from the auto-parts stores, and the gauges at the industrial supply houses ( Grainger is the closest to my residence ) all connect with a 1/4" NPT male fitting. My drain plug measures out as 1/2" SAE with 18 NF threads. I would much prefer to make a flow-rate estimate from suction & pressure readings, than calculate it from my complex return plumbing.

_________________
15K gallon in-ground gunite/plaster pool(58 year-old Anthony Bros.), 15'x30', depth 3-1/2'->8' . Hayward Ecostar pump. Hayward DE-3600 filter with Variflow 710XR50 1-1/2" valve. Polaris 380 cleaner & "the pool cleaner (suction)". Main-drain suction disconnected. New skimmer suction plumbing 2" PVC. Single return line 1" copper. Cleaner line 1-1/2" copper, re-plumbed in pump-house (PVC) for either suction or pressure. Hayward 3/4HP PB4 booster pump. Leslie's 260 BTU Coppertherm heater. All new suction interconnect plumbing 2". Return plumbing, filter-to-booster, 1-1/2". Single return to pool 1". All equipment located 2-1/2ft. above pool bottom level ( neg. 5ft. from surface ).

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: November 11th, 2012, 1:09 am

Joined: October 21st, 2012, 10:07 am
Posts: 138
Location: Central Ohio
That would be a tough adapter to find.Could you perhaps cut in a tee in your suction line close to your pump? (example of tee http://www.lascofittings.com/includes/f ... es/402.gif ) You can find these tees at Lowes,Home depot,Ace etc.. They are pretty common.
Then just use a 1/2 X 1/4 NPT bushing,so you can install your gauge.

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Rob

Cozumel AGP 24' 14,700 gallons
Pentair Dynamo 1.5 hp pump
Sta-rite Cristol-Flo II 2.3sq.ft. sand filter
Borates
TF-100 Testkit....\$68,cheap insurance for a trouble free pool season

Post subject: Re: Finding the flow curve
Posted: November 11th, 2012, 10:47 am
 Special Expert

Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 9:45 am
Posts: 5341
Location: Pleasanton, CA
No need to modify your plumbing. Most automotive vacuum gauges have hoses which you can use a 1/4" hose adapter like this:

Or you can get a vacuum gauge from eBay with a 1/4" fitting already on the gauge like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-1-2-Inch-300- ... 564e7d7650

_________________
Mark

Hydraulics 101;Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; FSEC Solar Panel Information
18'x36' 20k gallon plaster/gunite pool, 1/2 FRHP 2 speed pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 425 sq-ft Cartridge Filter, 450 sq-ft EPDM Solar Panel, 6 jet spa/1 FRHP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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