A New Pool Owner with EcoSmarte--it does work.

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

This is a very good site. I have been researching and preparing for my pool for over 2 years. I interviewed 12 pool builders. This website provided me with additional information that helped me with my quest. I tried to upload some photos of my new pool--filled and operating since June 22, 2010. It is a 31,000 gallon "L Shape" diving pool. I am using the EcoSmarte water treatment system (chemical free) and have had no issues. I have a Pentair Triton T-100 (600lb) filter with the EcoSmarte Glass Media; Pentair VS-3050 pump; Aqua Comfort AC-1500 Heat Pump; Booster Pump and Polaris 3900s cleaner; River Rok Lucayan Blue pebble finish; for extra fun a Turbo Twister Slide. Thanks for the interesting reading.

Bama Rambler · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 5:24 am

Welcome to TFP.

All those systems appear to work in the begining. It's after a while of using them that issues show up. Good luck with it.

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

Thanks for the input. I will let the board know but I did my research and I have a client that has used the system for 7 years with no problems.

frustratedpoolmom · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 9:54 am

Good luck. We'll be here if/when problems develop.

Pretty pool

JasonLion · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 4:11 pm

Using the EcoSmarte system without chlorine (or another approved sanitizer) is hazardous to your health. Use of an approved sanitizer is required by law in the US for commercial pools, yet the EcoSmarte system does not provide any of the approved sanitizers. There aren't any regulations covering private pools, but the risks that lead to the commercial pool regulations remain. Without a residual sanitizer in the water there is no meaningful protection from person to person disease transmission and only minimal protection from environment to person disease transmission. There are also substantial risks of developing unsightly stains, which can be extremely difficult to remove.

Sure, you can get lucky and not happen to get sick and not happen to get stains, at least for now, but that doesn't mean that the system works.

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

Thanks. I tried to be practical (kid practical) in my design.

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

That is not true. The system does sanitize and the water is safe. Before I purchased I did my research and there is no evidence to support your statement. Moreover, I have been to 2 pool stores to have my water tested (to double check my numbers) and both told me that the system is a proven system. Both stores told me the only thing keeping it from becoming more "mainstream" is the initial cost. As for stains---if you follow the instructions you will not add enough copper to cause any stains.

If I am proven wrong I will let you know. But as I said before I have emperical evidence from a client that the system does work.

Melt In The Sun · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 4:29 pm

The Chem Geek bat-signal is now illuminated....

mynewpool · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 4:33 pm

I want to say I am not trying to cause trouble here with my response.

So if you have had your water tested, what are your results? I would like to see this. Not to say this is not your pool, but cant pics be pulled from anywhere to say they are you own?

If a moderator thinks this is out of line, please remove.

Thanks.

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

I had my water tested for the normal pool chemistry issues--i.e. ph, hardness, alkalinity, copper and phosphates.

A simple search on Google will provide articles on how hospitals are using copper-silver to treat water to kill Legionella. And that the EPA has recognized "Antimicrobial Copper Alloys" and that "the metals' ability to kill specific disease-causing bacteria, including Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). MRSA is one of the most virulent strains of antibiotic-resistant bacteria and a common cause of hospital- and community-acquired infections." (citations omitted) The science supporting copper ions killing bacteria and viruses is tried and true.

Finally, I was just trying to say thanks to the website; and, share my new pool and utilized equipment, including my not so "main stream" water treatment system.

JasonLion · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 5:47 pm

bruceh wrote:

That is not true. . . . . there is no evidence to support your statement.

There are clearly spelled out criteria for water sanitizing developed by the EPA and a testing program for approving sanitizers that meet those criteria. Only three sanitizers have been approved: chlorine, bromine, and baquacil. EcoSmarte doesn't use any of those three chemicals and fails to meet the EPA criteria for sanitizing swimming water. Some people use the EcoSmarte system in combination with chlorine, which can be safe if done properly. If you aren't using chlorine (or bromine or baquacil) then you are not meeting the EPA criteria for sanitizing swimming water.

The EcoSmarte system is based on copper, which is only approved for using in preventing algae. It is not approved for use in killing bacteria or viruses (because it is not effective in that role against most bacteria/viruses). Killing bacteria and viruses is absolutely essential for swimming pools.

Copper levels sufficient to kill algae are also sufficient to cause stains if the PH rises much above 7.4. Swimming pool water tends to have slowly rising PH. If you do not keep the PH under control you will either get stains or you were not using enough copper to be effective against algae in the first place.

frustratedpoolmom · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 7:40 pm

chem geek wrote:

This EcoSmarte thread has some info and additional links, while this thread on another forum (the one Jason linked to above) is about Pristine Blue and this link has some references to copper kill times. It's not easy to find definitive data on silver and copper kill times for easy-to-kill bacteria, but roughly speaking it seems to be 99% kill rates with silver at around 10-20 minutes and 99% kill rates with copper at around 40 minutes. Chlorine with an FC that is around 10% of the CYA level has a 99% kill rate at 30 seconds to a minute which should be fast enough to reasonably prevent person-to-person transmission of many pathogens.

Silver and possibly copper kill fast enough to prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth, but probably not fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission. Bacteria double in population every 15-60 minutes so one wants a 50% kill time faster than that if one is to prevent bacteria from growing faster than they get killed. A 50% kill in 15 minutes roughly translates to a 99% kill in 100 minutes so silver beats this and copper does as well though without much margin for error.

The above is probably why commercial/public pools in the U.S. must use an EPA-approved sanitizer (chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB) since they kill quickly enough to likely prevent person-to-person transmission of most pathogens. Silver and copper can only be used as supplements, not standalone. The same is true for ozone and UV, though that has more to do with these systems not having any residual effect in the bulk pool water.

For spas, it does appear that a combination of silver ion with non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, MPS) is an effective sanitizer that appears to have been approved by the EPA. I write more about this technically in this post on another forum. It is the "low chlorine" recipe described in the Nature2 (N2) manual here though technically it is a "no chlorine" recipe most of the time.

From a practical point of view, the risk in residential pools is far lower unless you throw pool parties with people who are sick. That's probably why there aren't regulations for managing the chemistry of residential pools nor restrictions in what can be sold to the residential market. The only requirement by FIFRA (product labeling) rules the EPA enforces is that you can't claim your product is a disinfectant or sanitizer for pools and spas unless it passes DIS/TSS-12, though you can call your product a pesticide or algaecide if it is registered (silver and copper are both registered as pesticides/algaecides). For spas, metal ions alone are better than nothing, but the risk of getting hot tub itch/rash from the bacteria Pseudomonas aeruginosa (which fairly rapidly forms resistant biofilms) is possibly still high enough to be safer using an EPA-approved sanitizer (including N2+MPS). In any event, metal ions are not oxidizers so some sort of oxidizer must be added to spas in order to oxidize bather waste or else you will build up a lot of urea and ammonia (among other things).

Thank you for trying to improve regulations and clamp down on the pseudo-science and questionable claims.

Richard

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

The EPA has recognized that copper is an effective sanitizer. The following were the "test subjects" : Staphylococcus aureus (ATCC 6538)
Enterobacter aerogenes (ATCC 13048)
Pseudomonas aeruginosa (ATCC 15442)
Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus aureus MRSA (ATCC 33592)
Escherichia coli O157:H7 (ATCC 35150)
99.9% of the bad items were killed within 2 hours.

Whether it has recognized EcoSmarte or any other company I do not know. I do know that hospitals have utilized copper water treatment systems, albeit with silver, as a way to stop Legionella. And that the EPA has put it's stamp of approval on doing so---WATER TREATMENT Control methods designed to disinfect an entire water distribution system include thermal (super heat and flush) hyperchlorination copper-silver ionization (emphasis added)(United States Office Of Water September 2000 Environmental Protection Agency 4304 LEGIONELLA : DRINKING WATER FACT SHEET)

Beez · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 7:54 pm

bruceh wrote:

The EPA has recognized that copper is an effective sanitizer. The following were the "test subjects" : Staphylococcus aureus (ATCC 6538)
Enterobacter aerogenes (ATCC 13048)
Pseudomonas aeruginosa (ATCC 15442)
Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus aureus MRSA (ATCC 33592)
Escherichia coli O157:H7 (ATCC 35150)
99.9% of the bad items were killed within 2 hours.

Not meaning to pile on here, because it's your pool and you can do whatever you want with it. But 2 hours is a poor kill time. The purpose of a residual sanitizer is to prevent person to person transmission of pathogens which happens in seconds not hours.

lightingguy · **Joined:** June 17th, 2010, 7:04 pm **Posts:** 329

Wow, you sure know a lot about specific EPA ATCC numbers for a residential pool owner.

If you're gonna have a cover story you shouldn't break character.

salp · Posted: August 3rd, 2010, 10:27 pm

Melt In The Sun wrote:

The Chem Geek bat-signal is now illuminated....

Melt.... You are to funny! Better aim higher in the sky...

bruceh · **Joined:** May 20th, 2010, 6:32 am **Posts:** 13

I have no cover story. Everything I said can be found on the internet by doing simple research. The numbers quoted are for solid copper--not ions. I have no idea what the time would be for pool water with "free roaming" copper ions. Now that the EPA has approved copper and will allow others to make claims as to its ability to kill bacteria and viruses we will start to see more copper based items, not only in the "pool world" and medical profession (which is where most is now occurring) but in areas of everyday life.

I am not a salesperson for anyone--in fact I am less than 2 hours from Silver Spring--North East, MD. But I do like a good argument and discussion. And--I do know chlorine kills everything but it is also not people nor equipment friendly. And yes with EcoSmarte you do need to monitor your ph levels and copper levels (those 2 are most important) but ALL SYSTEMS require monitoring. And if I had not seen an actual pool using the system (and my client is a "techno" person) I would have been more skeptical. In fact, I was skeptical until I did further research.

The biggest issue I have is I need to add about 1/4 gallon of Muriatic Acid a week to keep the ph in the requisite range. But I also know with a new gunite pool adding acid is normal. If I have other issues I will let you know.

chem geek · Posted: August 4th, 2010, 10:34 am

Internet research is fine if looking at multiple scientific papers that have been peer-reviewed, but be wary of commercial sites with a profit motive. Solid copper is not at all the same as using ions at much lower concentrations in pools. Hospitals can use these to assist in disinfection because the concentrations are high and the contact times are long (note your quote of 99.9% kill in 2 hours) -- neither of which is true in pools. I wrote about Ecosmarte in this post where you will see that at the concentrations of metal ions found in pools, they are not only slow to kill bacteria but are essentially ineffective against viruses. Copper sulfate is registered with the EPA for pools as an algicide, not as a disinfectant, as shown in the PAN Database. There are many such products on the market for pools -- some using copper sulfate pentahydrate that is added manually or through erosion while others use electrolysis to add copper ions, but the result is the same.

Richard

gqjeff · Posted: August 4th, 2010, 10:44 am

I would def not trust anything without using chlorine? My son and I both had MRSA and it took me 8 months using many antibiotics to finally beat it. I also had to put stuff up our noses as that's where it lives. Finally taking an antibiotic that is used for TB got rid of it. Your pool is gorgeous by the way and good luck with it. I think people here are just trying to inform you and protect your family and friends.

Melt In The Sun · Posted: August 4th, 2010, 10:57 am

gqjeff wrote:

Your pool is gorgeous by the way and good luck with it. I think people here are just trying to inform you and protect your family and friends.

Exactly. Your pool is amazing (much better than mine!), and I would hate to see it stained, or someone get sick from enjoying it. Right now, it is only marginally safer than swimming in a lake or river.

A New Pool Owner with EcoSmarte--it does work.

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