I still dont get the motivation of the OP. Why are you so invested in this?

If a group of informed people warned me of the potential side effects of any of the various products I use and dont really understand I would be hesitant, questioning, worried. That's the way civilians act when confronted with confusing information.

Obviously I'm out of line and should stick to discussing to merits of the arguments - which I cannot.

Good luck with your pool.

I'll start off by saying welcome to TFP

We love good debates and discussions, but your above statement is generally not true. I also must say that I have never witnessesed chlorine based systems, when monitored properly (note you mention Eco-Smarte requires monitoring as well), being rude to people or taking a sledgehammer to the pool equipment...OK I'm kidding.

Anyway, it is very rare for chlorine based systems to interfere with most pool users...of course there are rare excpetions. Are there other systems that work?...sure, but please prove to us that the eco-smarte sanitation system (note system, not brand) has been approved by the EPA as a stand alone pool sanitization system.

We are always looking for some great education and is the moto of TFP to share knowledge about the BBB system and educate others on how to maintain their pools using such system. However, this is a BBB method based forum and given your statements are controversial to such method, I would suggest sharing the thorough research you have perfmormed so that we can understand your point of view better. Otherwise, keeping such knowledge to yourself and making posts such as "I use a system that is not BBB based and it works!" is not really saying thanks to the forum.

Anyway, you are very welcome if the forum has provided you with pool build hints and tips that made your build go well.

Enjoy the pool, it is beautiful

Just for the sake of discussion....

I understand the ultra fast kill times and everything, & I can definitely understand why a public pool would be regulated.

But what kind of residual or kill times do you think is available in beach water, or lakes or ponds? I live in Southeast Texas, and have swam in many a bayou's, where the water doesn't even move very much.

Again, for discussion....

Are we more susceptible to contracting a disease from water borne pathogens and germs than we are from airborne or surface germs and bacteria?

Basically, my question is how do we know that the ecosystem (or whatever it is) is not completely adequate for a privately owned pool?

For instance, ozone & UV, perfectly fine, and maybe even needed on a public pool. Not so much in a private pool.

Since I offered a criticism, I too would like to say congratulations on your new pool! An L shaped pool has got to be the ultimate shape for a pool. If I ever build from scratch, that's the one I want!

thunderkyss

Private pools typically have smaller ands more easily controlled bather loads. Chlorine is usually more than sufficient for sanitation. Swim club pools, water parks, etc... usually have much higher loads and higher risks are associated the load. They may need supplemental sanitation systems.

The human body is pretty good at keeping things in the air out of the body but when the pores are open when swimming, it's an open door. People also, invariably, ingest some pool water.

Nature has checks and balances to help with the water quality. Sometimes things get out of whack and public beaches and lakes are closed to swimmers.

bruceh

Don't know if you're still with us but Eco-Smarte is not chemical free, only chlorine free. pH needs to be kept low, typically between 6.7 and 7.0, require the addition of CO2, pH Down or muriatic acid. It also needs for the calcium hardness to be about 400. Phosphates, normally not a major concern for us BBBers, are very problematic for Eco-Smarte.

The low pH is to prevent scale with the calcium so high. The calcium is needed as part of the peroxide generation that occurs between the titanium plates. The peroxide formed will quickly break down meaning you won't have a residual in the pool where people are. No residual = no sanitizing or oxidizing. The only time this system oxidizing is when it is running.

The copper ions off the plates take a day or two to get to the needed level to prevent algae. No oxidizing happening during this time. BioBaddies will take advantage. Once it's starts, you need to use chlorine at shock levels. Salt levels MUST be kept low or the cell will act like a SWCG cell. Chlorine likes copper. Yum Yum.

Let the pH rise and the copper will fall out of solution and form stains. Decking will green up from splash out because of the copper.

I could go on. I hope that it works for your environment. Don't be surprised when it fails you. This is the place to come to when it does.

Scott

Hello I am back--still working but taking a break. Thank you to all who have posted compliments. I tried to create the prefect pool for my children. To those who think I am a shill---whatever--I am not.

As for copper ions---it works. As I stated previously, copper with traces of silver are used in hospitals to keep water free from bacteria and viruses. The following Abstract is from the medical journal Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology, Vol. 24, No. 8 2003 pps.563-568
The study was conducted using 16 hospitals and examined data over a period of 11 years.
CONCLUSIONS: This study represents the final step in
a proposed 4-step evaluation process of disinfection systems that
includes (1) demonstrated efficacy of Legionella eradication in
vitro using laboratory assays, (2) anecdotal experiences in preventing
legionnaires’ disease in individual hospitals, (3) controlled
studies in individual hospitals, and (4) validation in confirmatory
reports from multiple hospitals during a prolonged
time (5 to 11 years in this study). Copper–silver ionization is now
the only disinfection modality to have fulfilled all four evaluation
criteria (Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol 2003;24:563-568).

And see the following excerpt from the Center for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no3/02-0707.htm)

"Of particular interest is the inverse relationship between copper levels and Legionella presence. In the examined water, the risk of Legionella contamination was approximately six times lower when copper levels exceeded 50 µg/L, without influencing Pseudomonas contamination. In other studies, copper concentrations low enough to be commonly found in drinking water reduced numbers of coliform bacteria (13). Thus, we emphasize that this trace element influences some, but not all, bacterial growth (33). To control Legionella in hot water systems, methods that release copper and silver ions electrolytically in water may represent a promising solution (38–41). Although both metals play a role in limiting bacterial colonization, copper seems to better penetrate biofilm. Amoebae, the natural hosts of legionellae, have not been controlled successfully in vitro by adding metal (42), suggesting that legionellae survive inside protozoa and are destroyed by metal ions when released into free water."

Again--thank you for the compliments. I do not expect green concrete (never heard of anyone experiencing that before) but if I do I know where to come--at least to start my search.

Do you have references pertaining to systems in an open environment, i.e., swimming pools, vice drinking water or other closed/controlled system?

If copper is so wonderful, one wonders why the EPA classifies it as an algaecide and a fungicide, but not as a microbiocide? Australia has similar regulations, no copper based system without chlorine is approved there either. The same is true in several other parts of the world.

Quoting studies that use copper in totally unrelated conditions is entertaining and all, but has little to no useful relationship to what happens in a swimming pool, as chem geek already described several posts ago. Treating bodies of water inside air-conditioning systems has completely different criteria, with no meaningful relationship to what goes on in a swimming pool. Air conditioners don't have people swimming in them constantly reintroducing infectious agents. Nor is your exposure to water from air conditioning systems, occasional droplets thrown out of the system, at any where near the level of exposure you get from immersing yourself in a swimming pool.

The EPA has actually put some though into their criteria for swimming pool disinfection and established testable criteria, with justifications and peer review. Copper doesn't meet those criteria. Unless you can explain to us why the EPA somehow screwed up and really should have approved copper, you are simply ignoring the most reputable and most throughly documented set of available evidence.

Good morning-

The EPA has approved copper, albeit copper alloy, as a sanitizer against bacteria. The EPA used testing with copper not in an ionic state----copper sitting in a Petri dish. Copper sitting in a Petri dish is not as "powerful" as copper in an ionic state. With regards to further research--I am done. I need to get back to my profession. As I said before, if I have issues I will tell the Forum. At the same time if at the end of the season (which I am going to try and extend to the end of October) and next season I have no issues I will let everyone know.

Another topic---every now and then I see questions about River Rok. So, if anyone would like to see any photos I can upload same. The color I have is Lucayan Blue and my pool builder told me that most people he works with do not select that color so it is hard to find a fair and accurate representation of that color on the web.

We'll see you soon.

Scott

Thanks Scott---I know. Time flies and October will be here before you know it. So I will be "seeing" you all soon.

I am locking this thread. The discussion is virtually at a dead end and there is no point in reviving the same information.